Sobering statistics on Iraq - Page 6 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #51 of 98 (permalink) Old 02-07-2007, 11:09 AM
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Bruce R. You should butt out from our civilian conversations. You fucking goose stepping Nazi cunt.

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post #52 of 98 (permalink) Old 02-07-2007, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by elau
Bruce R. You should butt out from our civilian conversations. You fucking goose stepping Nazi cunt.
Pulling quotes from FTL now eh?? I believe his points and opinions are as valid as anyones here, regardless of how you feel.

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post #53 of 98 (permalink) Old 02-07-2007, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by JimSmith
That is significantly different than your use of "those who attack the troops" or "are against the troops" and has some validity. When I was getting married the Catholic Church required I, and my future wife, meet for marriage counseling with a local Priest. I found that particularly peculiar, as Priests have no first hand experience with the trials of marriage, much less the bliss part. In the end, after voicing my concerns, I came to realize that the Priest was a very capable observer and had some perspectives to offer that were of value.
My point of view and my comments have not changed. It's what you want to read into those comments that has changed Jim.
I had to go through similar "lessons" as they called them when I married my wife. After the first session the Priest suggested it was no longer required that I come back for anymore, it seems I asked too many questions that he had no real answers for. We remained friendly, but we avoided anything related to the Church or religion.

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Originally Posted by JimSmith
Recently Barbara Boxer suggested Condoleeza Rice was missing the first hand emotional experiences of a Mother, or a wife that play into most wives' and mothers' assessments of life's decisions, and therefore did not represent the views of wives and mothers when she supported sending troops, sons and daughers of mothers, or husbands of wives, to war for undefined reasons that could not be tied to any analysis that predicted a positive outcome. Very similar to your suggestion here, that if you are not or have not been in the Military, you cannot "speak for" the Military, from a logical construction perspective. How did you come out on Barbara Boxer's use of your logic?
There is a rather big difference between speaking for the military, and asking the military to do the job assigned to them.
You can ask, or in Condoleeza Rice 's case tell a soldier to do a job, they don't have to like it, they just have to do it. Those last twelve words come directly from the mouth of a SEAL Team Commander.
For some civilian to state how a Soldier, Sailor, Airman, or Marine feels about things can only be described as second hand information, or pure guess work. You are the son of a man that was in the military, you may know what your Father said at home, but do you truly know what he said and did at work?
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Nice to see you present your position without denegrating the troops. Please keep it up.
You conception of my position is skewed Jim, as I stated above my position hasn't changed only your perception of it has. I have never denigrated the troops, that could only happen in your mind...........

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post #54 of 98 (permalink) Old 02-07-2007, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by FeelTheLove
So, you disagree with the idea that the military works for the people of the US? We should all just butt out, even tho you work for us.
FoTL, your comments show your total ignorance of how the military works, and who they work for. The various branches of the Service work for the Federal Government NOT for the people. If you think otherwise maybe you should ask a Soldier to do something for you and see what happens...... The same would happen if the Governor of any State asked............. It doesn't work that way BOZO.
Ask a Guardsman the same thing and you'll get the same result, but if that Guardsman's Governor told him to do something I guarantee he'll jump on it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FeelTheLove
I think you've spent so much time jacking off to pictures of guns your brain fried.
I think that the pot is calling the kettle black.......... Aren't you the one flaunting the law with your firearms?

"Negotiating with Obama is like playing chess with a pigeon, the pigeon knocks over all the pieces, on the board and then struts around like it won the game."
Vladimir Putin

"They have gun control in Cuba. They have universal health care in Cuba. So why do they want to come here?"
Paul Harvey 8/31/94


"The only people who have quick answers don't have the responsibility of making the decisions."
Justice Clarence Thomas
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post #55 of 98 (permalink) Old 02-07-2007, 01:33 PM
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Bruce,

Actually your last series of posts did a much better job of establishing your point without the crutch of trampling on our servicemen in the field, and I merely noted that I appreciated it. No need to abuse the troops to make a point in an argument about politics.

As for posting quotes by servicemen describing their feelings either while in the field or after they come back, well, I think all of it is basically using the troops to bolster a political argument, and unnecessary. For every troop quote you can find pro-Iraq invasion, I can find one con-Iraq invasion. Overall bringing the poor bastards stuck out there with no choice but to follow orders into these discussions on either side is abuse of those very men and women out there serving the country. It is also relatively meaningless as they were never sent there as observers to discuss their observations and arrive at some kind of consensus of social conscience before they returned home. They are struggling to survive in an environment our political policies have invented to kill them. Let them figure out how best to survive, and keep the pressure on the civilians making policy, and the political appointees charged with carrying out the policy to justify the expenses to America in terms of American soldier's lives, civilians lives, Iraqi lives, destruction of defense resources, and draining of the treasury for the progress delivered making America more secure. Keep the troops out of politics and political rhetoric - be grateful they volunteer and perform as the brave soldiers they are - and resist the temptation to use them in ways that do nothing but belittle and denegrate their bravery.

Honoring the gift the troops offer the country when they volunteer for military service by sending them in harm's way only when the nation is threatened, and no other options exist that have not been tried and exhausted by best efforts this country can muster in each of the alternate scenarios, is the only true expression of value that matters. Letting one group of people, or worse, only relying on one group of people, the troops, to give their all while other branches of the government services sit back and don't really try or give their all to achieve any of their goals is a gross failure of the United States federal government. A failure to attract, employ, motivate and demand an equally dedicated caliber of public servant in other equally vital areas of service and responsibility to the well being of this nation. That this lower standard of performance is apparently accepted or worse, expected, by the civilian agency heads and the nation, while we all continue to only demand the troops live up to any standards of performance, is dishonoring that very gift the troops offer our nation when they sign up.

In this Iraq boondoggle, the CIA failed, the details of the failure remain to be revealed, but the Department of the Secretary of State failed, and the civilian heads, as a minimum, of the Department of Defense failed to serve this nation honorably. There is some question, legitimate question, of whether or not the military officers selected to run the Pentagon have served honorably that remains to be assessed. Yet Bush gave all the existing or outgoing heads medals in the midst of these failed performances. In my mind Bush has failed to uphold his vows at his inaugeration.

Notice Bruce, nowhere is there any attempt to suggest the troops are doing anything other than what they were ordered to do, and that they are carrying out those orders to very best of their abilities, including being wounded, maimed or killed while they carry out their orders. I am infinitely grateful for their bravery and capability. I merely question why the fat asses in Washington, DC sent them their, and continue to send them there. No attack on the troops, and no attempt to use the troops to make my point. It is the political policy and policy makers that are being critqued.

I am happy to see you have begun to avoid abusing and denegrating the troops to make your points, regardless of how you characterize the change you note I perceive to be only recent. Thanks, Jim
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post #56 of 98 (permalink) Old 02-07-2007, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce R.
FoTL, your comments show your total ignorance of how the military works, and who they work for. The various branches of the Service work for the Federal Government NOT for the people. If you think otherwise maybe you should ask a Soldier to do something for you and see what happens...... The same would happen if the Governor of any State asked............. It doesn't work that way BOZO.
Ask a Guardsman the same thing and you'll get the same result, but if that Guardsman's Governor told him to do something I guarantee he'll jump on it.

I think that the pot is calling the kettle black.......... Aren't you the one flaunting the law with your firearms?
So the Federal Government does not work for the people?

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #57 of 98 (permalink) Old 02-07-2007, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by FeelTheLove
So the Federal Government does not work for the people?
Pay attention to what you wrote knot head:
"So, you disagree with the idea that the military works for the people of the US?"
Yes, I disagree with what you stated there. The Federal Government is NOT what you wrote and it's not the same thing is it?
Try and get your alleged mind off whatever it is you're smoking or drinking before you look for an argument with someone.

"Negotiating with Obama is like playing chess with a pigeon, the pigeon knocks over all the pieces, on the board and then struts around like it won the game."
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"The only people who have quick answers don't have the responsibility of making the decisions."
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post #58 of 98 (permalink) Old 02-07-2007, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Bruce R.
Pay attention to what you wrote knot head:
"So, you disagree with the idea that the military works for the people of the US?"
Yes, I disagree with what you stated there. The Federal Government is NOT what you wrote and it's not the same thing is it?
Try and get your alleged mind off whatever it is you're smoking or drinking before you look for an argument with someone.
I"m not sure if you are just pretending to be slow or not, but it follows that if the military takes direction from the Federal government, and the Federal government is "for, by and of the people", then the military should be at the command of the people (indirectly of course). Did you miss this or willfully ignore it?

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post #59 of 98 (permalink) Old 02-07-2007, 03:56 PM
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Pulling quotes from FTL now eh?? I believe his points and opinions are as valid as anyones here, regardless of how you feel.
Just mirroring his opinion. He told people to butt out on military discussion if they never served. So is others, their points and opinions are just as valid. Are you saying Bruce R. the only one has a valid point? What are you, his bitch?

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post #60 of 98 (permalink) Old 02-07-2007, 06:18 PM Thread Starter
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OK, you guys asked for it (and yes, I know its an old joke . . . )

One day a fourth-grade teacher asked the children what their
fathers did for a living. All the typical answers came up --
fireman, mechanic, businessman, salesman, doctor, lawyer, and so
forth. However, little Justin was being uncharacteristically
quiet, so when the teacher prodded him about his father, he
replied, "My father's an exotic dancer in a gay cabaret and
takes off all his clothes in front of other men and they put money
in his underwear. Sometimes, if the offer is really good, he will
go home with some guy and stay with him all night for money." The
teacher, obviously shaken by this statement, hurriedly set the
other children to work on some exercises and then took little
Justin aside to ask him, "Is that really true about your father?"
"No," the boy said, "He works for the Democratic National Committee
and is helping to get Hillary Clinton to be our next President,
but I was too embarrassed to say that in front of the other kids."
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