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post #91 of 116 (permalink) Old 02-01-2007, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by elau
I believe global warming and ice age are related. We should not disregard either and research on both should be equally important. Here is a brief article for anyone cares to read.

Global Warming:A Chilling Perspective

This article seems to support and dispute everyone's argument here. So read it with an open mind.
One point that I will not challenge is that we as a society can do enough to keep the CO2 levels within historical levels, within the natural cycle.

However, this article makes some assertions without any data to back it up, and strangely has no CO2 level numbers comparing today to the historical record. Temperature rise lags CO2 levels, and so naturally the global temperature today has not yet exceeded any limits outside the natural cycle.

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post #92 of 116 (permalink) Old 02-01-2007, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by old300D
You really have no clue what you are talking about do you? I know I dont walk in lockstep with your opinions.
Explain why you think the percentage of CO2 to air in only two digits has the slightest significance to the issue? I don't believe that CO2 is the whole issue to the warming effect and that as a percentage of the atmosphere is so small that 1/30 of total output of CO2 of .04%(amount that CO2 that makeups of our atmosphere) is an unbelievably small amount given other "green house" gas compounds that it has that much of an impact.
What is significant is the change and the absolute levels compared to pre-industrial times. And explain why some crackpot stories you were brainwashed with in school has any bearing on current climate change theory? Hello?, that scientists in the ealry 80's thought we were heading into an ice age and now believe we are heading towards a warming trend.


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post #93 of 116 (permalink) Old 02-01-2007, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by old300D
You really have no clue what you are talking about do you? I know I dont walk in lockstep with your opinions.
Explain why you think the percentage of CO2 to air in only two digits has the slightest significance to the issue? I don't believe that CO2 is the whole issue to the warming effect and that as a percentage of the atmosphere is so small that 1/30 of total output of CO2 of .04%(amount that CO2 that makeups of our atmosphere) is an unbelievably small amount given other "green house" gas compounds that it has that much of an impact.
What is significant is the change and the absolute levels compared to pre-industrial times. And explain why some crackpot stories you were brainwashed with in school has any bearing on current climate change theory? Hello?, that scientists in the ealry 80's thought we were heading into an ice age and now believe we are heading towards a warming trend.
"unbelievably small" = non-scientific, faith-based argument.

Hello? Try qualifiying "scientists in the '80s"

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post #94 of 116 (permalink) Old 02-01-2007, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by old300D
"unbelievably small" = non-scientific, faith-based argument.

Hello? Try qualifiying "scientists in the '80s"
Perhaps we should ask the media to qualify "scientists" from the 80's and earlier.
"Here is a quote from Newsweek magazine:
“There are ominous signs that the Earth’s weather patterns have begun to change dramatically and that these changes may portend a drastic decline in food production– with serious political implications for just about every nation on Earth.”

A headline in the New York Times reads: “Climate Changes Endanger World’s Food Output.”

Here is a quote from Time Magazine: “As they review the bizarre and unpredictable weather pattern of the past several years, a growing number of scientists are beginning to suspect that many seemingly contradictory meteorological fluctuations are actually part of a global climatic upheaval.”

All of this sounds very ominous. That is, until you realize that the three quotes I just read were from articles in 1975 editions of Newsweek Magazine and The New York Times, and Time Magazine in 1974.

They weren’t referring to global warming; they were warning of a coming ice age.

Let me repeat, all three of those quotes were published in the 1970’s and warned of a coming ice age.

In addition to global cooling fears, Time Magazine has also reported on global warming. Here is an example:

“[Those] who claim that winters were harder when they were boys are quite right… weathermen have no doubt that the world at least for the time being is growing warmer.”

Before you think that this is just another example of the media promoting Vice President Gore’s movie, you need to know that the quote I just read you from Time Magazine was not a recent quote; it was from January 2, 1939.

Yes, in 1939. Nine years before Vice President Gore was born and over three decades before Time Magazine began hyping a coming ice age and almost five decades before they returned to hyping global warming.

Time Magazine in 1951 pointed to receding permafrost in Russia as proof that the planet was warming. In 1952, the New York Times noted that the “trump card” of global warming “has been the melting glaciers.”
Prior to the advent of (valid) skepticism rooted in the vast oceans of information made available by the internet, what was one to believe? What else are we now to make of the choir calling "wolf" - the very one who has called "wolf" for 7 straight decades. Yet here we stand, free from catastrophic famines and upheavals of governments who have failed to provide for the common welfare of its people (except for Saddam, of course, but I doubt anyone would blame El Nino for him).
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post #95 of 116 (permalink) Old 02-01-2007, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by old300D
"unbelievably small" = non-scientific, faith-based argument.

Hello? Try qualifiying "scientists in the '80s"

But wait, there's more:
"Here is a quote from the New York Times reporting on fears of an approaching ice age.

“Geologists Think the World May be Frozen Up Again.”

That sentence appeared over 100 years ago in the February 24, 1895 edition of the New York Times.

Let me repeat. 1895, not 1995.

A front page article in the October 7, 1912 New York Times, just a few months after the Titanic struck an iceberg and sank, declared that a prominent professor “Warns Us of an Encroaching Ice Age.”

The very same day in 1912, the Los Angeles Times ran an article warning that the “Human race will have to fight for its existence against cold.”

An August 10, 1923 Washington Post article declared: “Ice Age Coming Here.”

By the 1930’s, the media took a break from reporting on the coming ice age and instead switched gears to promoting global warming:

“America in Longest Warm Spell Since 1776; Temperature Line Records a 25-year Rise” stated an article in the New York Times on March 27, 1933. The media of yesteryear was also not above injecting large amounts of fear and alarmism into their climate articles.

An August 9, 1923 front page article in the Chicago Tribune declared: “Scientist Says Arctic Ice Will Wipe Out Canada.” The article quoted a Yale University professor who predicted that large parts of Europe and Asia would be “wiped out” and Switzerland would be “entirely obliterated.”

A December 29, 1974 New York Times article on global cooling reported that climatologists believed “the facts of the present climate change are such that the most optimistic experts would assign near certainty to major crop failure in a decade.” The article also warned that unless government officials reacted to the coming catastrophe, “mass deaths by starvation and probably in anarchy and violence” would result.

In 1975, the New York Times reported that “A major cooling [was] widely considered to be inevitable.” These past predictions of doom have a familiar ring, don’t they? They sound strikingly similar to our modern media promotion of former Vice president’s brand of climate alarmism.
Of course, you'd read all of this, because I provided you a link to a fairly comprehensive article a few days ago...
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post #96 of 116 (permalink) Old 02-01-2007, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by BadBenz94
And I agree with you on this and I dont think anyone is against controlling our contribution to the world we live in. But I think there is more to "global" warming than CO2 alone since it is all of .04% of our atmosphere. To say we dont contribute we be ignorant but also to blame the global warming theory on humans alone I think is ignorant as well, imho.

It wasnt that many years ago we were claiming a new Ice age was on the way.....I remeber those "findings" in school. We have come full circle and I think its safe to say there is no certainty to anything at this point and level of understanding of our earth other than death and taxes.
I think you have the logic behind the importance of atmospheric CO2 as an agent to alter the earth's albedo out of context. If the CO2 concentration was that of Nitrogen, forgetting the fact that that is not possible for a second, small changes in the amount of CO2, on the order of a hundred ppm over a century, would be relatively meaningless. However, at a pre-industrial level estimated by scientists to have been around 280 ppm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4803460.stm and I know you will discount it as it is a BBC reference, but ignore that for the moment), and its apparent strong influence on the earth's albedo, even at such a low concentration, the increase to 383 ppm by March of 2006, is potentially significant. If we were to stop the rate of increasing our CO2 emissions, it is very likely the earth's climate control systems would get busy and stash much of the extra CO2 deep in the oceans, in polar ice caps and what ever other mechanisms exist, and the concentration would slowly return to some equilibrium point without any other disturbing influences.

Unfortunately it seems the CO2 stashing mechanisms have been upset enough that now, former CO2 stashes (polar ice caps, for example, and the slow warming of the oceans which will release dissolved gasses of all kinds) are being emptied into the atmosphere as well. That is a bad omen, as any corrective action humans may take will have to neutralize and then reverse the loss of these CO2 hiding places.

If you recall, earthquakes and in some instances, mining operations, can stir water from deep lakes or the oceans and bring this water to the surface. The result is like opening a bottle of shaken cola/carbonated pop at body temperature. The water appears to boil as the gasses in solution at the ambient pressures at the depths of the water has come from, comes out of solution at atmospheric pressures. Typically there is very little O2 in this mix, and whole villages, or mining operations, have been wiped out by the sudden displacement of oxygen.

No one is assigning "blame" for global warming. We are doing nothing more than identifying the only player in this game we can control - which is the human player. The human contribution can be quantified and controlled, if we try. If we merely decide, as a species, that this is a problem for someone else to worry about, we will, as a species, face the consequences.

The evidence for the human player's influence is presently remarkably well tied to the success of humans as a species to populate the planet. The correlation is statistically nearly obvious. It was not apparent earlier because no one was looking. Now that we have observed and are tracking the correlation, it is very difficult to ignore without some motive to ignore it. As I said earlier, it is not "normal" to worry about future problems when faced with immediate ones, like eating or finding shelter, or, in our new industrialized world where those issues are less prominent, things like getting a hair cut or impressing our neighbor with our new, bigger, shinier and more expensive car. The message is, lets not let global warming get in the way of finding and securing food and shelter, or personal grooming and sanitation. But lets consider it when the choices can be easier, meaning they have no detrimental effect on the actual quality of our life. Eventually maybe we can learn to distinguish between icons we worship that project a higher quality of life, and actual quality of life.

The longer we wait to take any action, the greater the challenge to humans to control the releases we are contributing to becomes. It is entirely plausible that the problem could become uncontrollable if we wait long enough. But it will be very apparent, as it interferes with our ability to secure food and shelter on a daily basis.

Jim
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post #97 of 116 (permalink) Old 02-01-2007, 04:06 PM
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Two words -- "cow belches".

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post #98 of 116 (permalink) Old 02-01-2007, 09:05 PM
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IMHO, we are not at the policy setting stage of this issue . . . and I remain unimpressed, as I was about 50 posts ago, that a majority of scientists have decided CO2 is the smoking gun, so to speak. The end of this may be CO2 controls, zero population growth, tree planting, car pooling, water vapor containment, etc., setting a policy now and pissing away a few trillion to maybe not make an impact would be stupid as hell. The only thing we can be sure of, whatever it is, it will be pinned on Bush.
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post #99 of 116 (permalink) Old 02-01-2007, 09:15 PM Thread Starter
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Pure as the driven snow, he is, mate.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #100 of 116 (permalink) Old 02-01-2007, 09:22 PM Thread Starter
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Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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