Communism is emerging in Venezuela - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #1 of 21 (permalink) Old 01-29-2007, 08:23 PM Thread Starter
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Communism is emerging in Venezuela

America is about to have a very, very hard time in Venezuela. For the first time since Chile in the 1970's, which we responded to by putting a fascist murderer in charge of the country, we have what is shaping up to be a freely elected Communist government:

Chavez about to get more power - Americas - MSNBC.com

How are we going to respond to that? We can't cry 'dictatorship' because he is a freely elected official, with wide popular support. Is he our enemy?

As many of you know, I work mainly for pipeline service companies. As of the past three days, the bigwigs in all these companies and in the oil companies are freaking, and I mean freaking out. Chavez is about to demonstrate a new model of the Oil State. Will this cause a whole new set of problems for us as the slum dwellers of Saudi Arabia and the mud-covered masses of Nigeria look on and see a nation where oil wealth is distributed according to Marx? Will the era of religious fanaticism give way to a new popular form of Communism? I talked to a top executive today who handles international accounts. I mentioned that the same movement is taking hold in Bolivia and Peru, and Ecuador, all oil or natural gas producing states. "Who gives a fuck about them", he said, "but Venezuela is a whole different story. We have massive investments there. We get huge amounts of oil there. Venezuela matters."

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #2 of 21 (permalink) Old 01-29-2007, 08:35 PM
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NOT communism.

Mr Chavez is assuming onto himself powers of indefinite duration. That is the exact opposite of communism, in which each member is co-equal. Chavez' ambitions appear to lead to a national socialism personified in the head of state & government: Like Fidel and Peron. And Adolf.

B
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post #3 of 21 (permalink) Old 01-29-2007, 09:02 PM
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The US has no need nor moral imperative to respond, interfere or otherwise manipulate the internal affairs of this or any other sovereign nation. Venezuela is and has never been a threat to our national security, so our job is to offer a hearty handshake of friendship and be pleasantly non-intrusive and neighborly.
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post #4 of 21 (permalink) Old 01-29-2007, 09:19 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Botnst
NOT communism.

Mr Chavez is assuming onto himself powers of indefinite duration. That is the exact opposite of communism, in which each member is co-equal. Chavez' ambitions appear to lead to a national socialism personified in the head of state & government: Like Fidel and Peron. And Adolf.

B
First off, the powers are described a for 18 months.

National Socialism is the idea that a society needs to organize itself around a strong leader for the purpose of making war, in order to dominate others, so that the raw materials of production can be used to enhance the well-being of the warrior state, you know - like Bush does. I see none of that here - his programs are of a classic socialist nature. I would say the same for Fidel, while Peron was so corrupt little of real value was delivered to the poor. Chavez, even tho insane, seems genuinely concerned with and is acting to alleviate the grinding poverty capitalism has brought to the Venezuelan majority.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #5 of 21 (permalink) Old 01-30-2007, 03:16 AM
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FTL considering the people you work for you can check the reliability of what I have heard from some friends here. A lot and I mean a lot of the oil that Chavez has is very high in sulphur and it takes special refineries to refine this oil and the only refineries geared up for processing this high sulphur content is in the States. So if he wants to "cut us off" or seize these oil company assets does he really believe he can refine this oil somewhere else?
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post #6 of 21 (permalink) Old 01-30-2007, 04:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Jakarta Expat
FTL considering the people you work for you can check the reliability of what I have heard from some friends here. A lot and I mean a lot of the oil that Chavez has is very high in sulphur and it takes special refineries to refine this oil and the only refineries geared up for processing this high sulphur content is in the States. So if he wants to "cut us off" or seize these oil company assets does he really believe he can refine this oil somewhere else?
Pardon me while I butt in.

IIRC, Venezuelan oil is refined in Aruba, too. Lots of oil worldwide is heavy. Venezuelan oil is sold on the market like everybody else's. It's cheaper for us to buy due to transportation costs. Like Mexican and Canadian oil. When Castro dies I'll bet within a couple of years we'll be bank-rolling offshore oil development in Cuba that will put Floridians in a sweat.

FTL, Chavez is asking that he be allowed to serve unlimited terms as president.

He, like every national socialist dictator before him, tries to convince his people of dire external threats that require extraordinary powers in response. The sieze foreign assets first and later, "essential" domestic industry comes within their state control.

It doesn't require actual war or expansionist policies. Look at Peron or that Paraguayan dictator with the German name who died several years ago. Each built their military into wonderful parade machines and did nothing much with them other than intimidate internal dissent.

B
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post #7 of 21 (permalink) Old 01-30-2007, 04:53 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Jakarta Expat
FTL considering the people you work for you can check the reliability of what I have heard from some friends here. A lot and I mean a lot of the oil that Chavez has is very high in sulphur and it takes special refineries to refine this oil and the only refineries geared up for processing this high sulphur content is in the States. So if he wants to "cut us off" or seize these oil company assets does he really believe he can refine this oil somewhere else?
The different grades of crude is interesting stuff. Saudi and Iraqi crude is of such a high quaility, it even looks like refined motor oil, with a nice amber color. Venezuelan Texas crude, on the other hand, is the exact opposite, black nasty shit with lots of tar and sulphur. In answer to your question, Venzuela is in an enviable position, there are massive refineries there dedicated to gasoline production. In the states, they own Citgo, which gives them refining capacity in the US as well, and a distribution network to go along with it.

Chavez has no desire to "cut us off". We are the source of the revenue that finances his communist revolution. Seizure of assets is pretty routine in SA as well. Chavez's real interest is in keeping the price of oil high.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #8 of 21 (permalink) Old 01-30-2007, 07:54 AM
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Do you think they can do a better job with the oil than Mexico's Pemex?
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post #9 of 21 (permalink) Old 01-30-2007, 08:11 AM Thread Starter
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The Achille's Heel of all Latin American societies is corruption. It is one of the reason's Fidel has remained in power so long (and why Americans are hated so) - Cuba prior to Fidel was so corrupt it literally became a Mafia State. Whatever else Cuba is, corruption is simply not a problem. Pemex is corrupt top to bottom, and delivers little to the Mexican people. If Venezuela can avoid that, they can enjoy the communist high life until the oil runs out. If Chavez goes the way of Peron, a leftist who became corrupt, versus the way of Fidel, an idealogue who cared little for the jet set life, he will fail.

Americans are so propagandized we do not realize that Cuba, with little money thanks to our embargoes, has become the model of a successful poverty-state to the poor all over the world. The average African or South Asian would envy the life of a Cuban. Cuba's masses have good health care, probably the best educational system in Latin America, and the average person has decent living quarters. The rest of Latin Merika, they live like rats under kleptocracies. For them, that is what capitalism is - a system that puts them in a cardboard hut while those with the guns rape the country. Communism, on the other hand, sounds like a good deal. Venezuela is recovering from that, with 60% of the population, now an electoral majority, living in squalid slums. Fidelism looks like a good deal to these people, and that is what Chavez is selling.

There is a school of thought that thinks that Communism may be good for a society in the long run. When the communists take over, they usually get rid of the societal components that are actually blocking liberal democracy. In Europe, it was the extermination of all the various fascist movements in Hungry, Romania, etc. In China, it was the extermination of the corrupt Komintang Government and its warlord system. In Vietnam, it was the corrupt traitors who aided the French and the US in colonial domination. In Cuba, it was the Mafia State. In South America, it will be the corrupt rich elite. Once these elements are removed, Communism generally collapses once society reaches a state we might call "modern", and liberal democracy and regulated capitalism can take hold.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address

Last edited by FeelTheLove; 01-30-2007 at 08:24 AM.
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post #10 of 21 (permalink) Old 01-30-2007, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Botnst
He, like every national socialist dictator before him, tries to convince his people of dire external threats that require extraordinary powers in response.

B
Why does that seem familiar?

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