Communism is emerging in Venezuela - Page 2 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #11 of 21 (permalink) Old 01-30-2007, 08:37 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by GermanStar
Why does that seem familiar?
That is actually the first I have heard that. Chavez's defense spending is not excessive. The people of his country take his claims of imminent US invasion with a grain of salt. But most average people in Venezeula need only look at our history in Latin America to know we are not some trumped-up threat, we are a real threat to them. They have a right to do what they wish about that. As I have stated, this is a functioning democracy and this is the guy the people there elected. We are not dealing with some Politburo here.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address

Last edited by FeelTheLove; 01-30-2007 at 08:39 AM.
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post #12 of 21 (permalink) Old 01-30-2007, 08:45 AM
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Actually, the line reminded me of the Bush administration.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #13 of 21 (permalink) Old 01-30-2007, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by GermanStar
Actually, the line reminded me of the Bush administration.
oh you have heard it before and Bush wasn't the frist and he won't be the last to say as much...

"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."
-- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials

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post #14 of 21 (permalink) Old 01-30-2007, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by FeelTheLove
The Achille's Heel of all Latin American societies is corruption. It is one of the reason's Fidel has remained in power so long (and why Americans are hated so) - Cuba prior to Fidel was so corrupt it literally became a Mafia State. Whatever else Cuba is, corruption is simply not a problem. Pemex is corrupt top to bottom, and delivers little to the Mexican people. If Venezuela can avoid that, they can enjoy the communist high life until the oil runs out. If Chavez goes the way of Peron, a leftist who became corrupt, versus the way of Fidel, an idealogue who cared little for the jet set life, he will fail.

Americans are so propagandized we do not realize that Cuba, with little money thanks to our embargoes, has become the model of a successful poverty-state to the poor all over the world. The average African or South Asian would envy the life of a Cuban. Cuba's masses have good health care, probably the best educational system in Latin America, and the average person has decent living quarters. The rest of Latin Merika, they live like rats under kleptocracies. For them, that is what capitalism is - a system that puts them in a cardboard hut while those with the guns rape the country. Communism, on the other hand, sounds like a good deal. Venezuela is recovering from that, with 60% of the population, now an electoral majority, living in squalid slums. Fidelism looks like a good deal to these people, and that is what Chavez is selling.

There is a school of thought that thinks that Communism may be good for a society in the long run. When the communists take over, they usually get rid of the societal components that are actually blocking liberal democracy. In Europe, it was the extermination of all the various fascist movements in Hungry, Romania, etc. In China, it was the extermination of the corrupt Komintang Government and its warlord system. In Vietnam, it was the corrupt traitors who aided the French and the US in colonial domination. In Cuba, it was the Mafia State. In South America, it will be the corrupt rich elite. Once these elements are removed, Communism generally collapses once society reaches a state we might call "modern", and liberal democracy and regulated capitalism can take hold.
Why can't you have an honest discussion about anything without dragging out FTLisms about how we are hated? Immigration statistics prove you wrong.

Castro has a net worth of $900 millon. Corruption and the black market ARE problems in Cuba. Cuba survived and survives because of support from the USSR and remitances from the US.

Government control of the economy = black markets and corruption.

If you are a Venezuelan and start getting a check each moth for doing nothing, you will love it. You will vote for the guy who sends it to you. Ask any democrat in the US.


It doesn't make for a healthy economy, and eventually all socialists run out of other people's money to spend.

Do we need to do anything? No.

The USSR is no longer out there trying to dominate the world and a welfare state can't compete with us.
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post #15 of 21 (permalink) Old 01-30-2007, 03:31 PM Thread Starter
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Thank you for all those fine generalizations, we certainly were lacking in that and in empty rhetoric as a whole, and are always glad when you come along.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #16 of 21 (permalink) Old 01-30-2007, 06:25 PM
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i'm a little surprised you take chavez at face value. i sure don't. we'll see what happens there but his motions are worrysome none-the-less.



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post #17 of 21 (permalink) Old 01-30-2007, 06:49 PM
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Good thread.
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post #18 of 21 (permalink) Old 01-30-2007, 08:11 PM Thread Starter
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i'm a little surprised you take chavez at face value. i sure don't. we'll see what happens there but his motions are worrysome none-the-less.
I take him for what he is: the product of the indigenous Indian culture who have been royally screwed for centuries. He will be big trouble to us, but not militarially.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #19 of 21 (permalink) Old 01-30-2007, 08:20 PM
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well, yeah i agree. i am not necessarily worried about us but his own people because he smells of dictatorship to me. the only threat to US is that to our coorps as i bet he'll take over any foreign concerns and make them "the people's."

however i do not agree that there is no corruption there or cuba. it's different corruption that what we may be used to and in reality it's probably worse then we can imagine. people in cuba do not have as good as you describe. yes, the do have pretty good social medicine and education but they are not free at all and dissidents are treated rather harshly. castro is a crook. they are awaiting his death in miami with great anticipation and with fanfare to come.



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post #20 of 21 (permalink) Old 01-30-2007, 08:25 PM
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Good thread.
With that, good night.
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