I got an advance copy of FTL's response to Bush's speech tonight - Page 14 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #131 of 152 (permalink) Old 01-25-2007, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Jakarta Expat
Have we had any attacks on American soil since invading Iraq? No, well occupying Iraq seems too be fullfilling the objective.
We have also had no attacks on American soil since the rovers landed on Mars. It seems the rovers are fulfilling their objective.

BTW, how many dead Americans would it take to offset a half million dead Iraqis? How many Iraqi lives do you think are worth one American life -- 10, 20 50? I'll go ahead and say 1.

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post #132 of 152 (permalink) Old 01-25-2007, 08:28 AM
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Don't foresake the advanced protective effects that can be derived from the strategic placement of garden gnomes and lawn jockeys. They are the first line of defense against terrorists, philosophers and pick-pockets. It's a known fact that Manhattan has no garden gnomes.
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post #133 of 152 (permalink) Old 01-25-2007, 08:46 AM
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You have, and I would guess purposely as it makes your case easier that way, built your position using two unsupported concepts. First, you are apparently suggesting the invasion of Iraq was justified after 9-11-2001, yet you don't make any case for this concept.
This is why I've used the term "eraser" on people who have supplanted the climate of the moment (meaning the moment the decision to invade was made) with their own perspectives and selective memories. No matter what your individual beliefs regarding the clarity of our vision into Iraq's WMD program, several very sobering things were clear:

1) Seemingly small-time terrorist groups had a much greater appetite and capacity for killing Americans than had ever been anticipated prior to 9/11.

2) Since these individuals organized and operated in non-traditional ways, they had benefits and liabilities that had to be reconsidered. One of their benefits was that their lack of "national pride" so to speak and their loosely integrated heirarchy made them difficult to strike at once. One of their liabilities was that they could not develop or easily procure materials to carry out large-scale attacks.

3) Knowing the new level of their determination and hatred, the low-hanging fruit became the effort to keep insecure weapons materials out of their hands. There were two primary sources of such material in existence - Russia, and Iraq. Russia's came from their dilapidated nuclear program (news this morning on how Georgian officials intercepted high-grade nuclear material that was destined to be sold to terrorists), Iraq's came from their previous endeavors to scorch their own soil with SCUD's, etc.

The fact that Iraq HAD developed these weapons and used them in the past is NOT IN DISPUTE.

This is the 'climate' to which I've been referring, that seems to be ignored at every turn. No matter what anyone's individual opinion is of how these facts were analyzed or acted upon, it's plainly evident to any fair minded individual that Iraq represented the 'clearest' danger at present, in the form of the one place in the world where immediate action could be taken that would prevent future terrorist attacks.

Now then, realize that no defense of the manner in which the operation to prune that threat has been made. I'm not educated enough to weigh in on such matters, but any fair minded person can concede that things haven't gone as well as anyone would have hoped.

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Your next unsupported concept is that someone suggested or believes we invaded Iraq because of some pent up bloodlust that finally just burst and we picked Iraq to satisfy this urge.
This is the way things 'are' if you listen to FTL, and Ron has had a chance to call this a ridiculous assertion (and demurred). I find it a ridiculous concept, but it seems to be the one echoed consistently by the frothiest anti-war crowd here.


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So, you have yet to justify your position that as events have unfolded, going into Iraq to search for, and control Sadddam's WMD cache so these WMD he had could not be used against America, is justified. Today. Once you make that case we can address the rest of your unfounded window dressing to make your case attractive.
That's what I got...ready to go on?


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Now, once we take away your Red Herring, your self fashioned "deus ex machina" devised to buttress your posturing, your entire dragon's breath assault flames out. Let's just stick to the facts. We don't know anything about the actual reasons for Bush's Deus ex machina, the WMD fabrication, or the selection of Iraq, for sure, yet. It is coming though. Something equally unacceptable, especially considering the consequences, but not something so easily cast aside as nonsense.
Let me state for the record that I've no presupposition of either innocence or guilt, of any individual (much less the President), in this regard. My issue stems from those who do. As yet, I'm not inclined to believe that there existed what must have been an unimaginably vast conspiracy to convince the entire world that WMD's existed in Iraq.

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A military solution is virtually off the table unless we can get strong international support. This is, afterall, a global war on terror, right? So where is the support from the rest of the globe? We cannot take on the rest of the globe successfully.
Good quesiton. Presumably, the fear of losing political clout has caused other leaders to succumb to the will of the masses. It's a shame that what's right is seldom what's easy or popular, and a greater shame that so few have the spine to do it.

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And, given today's 20-20 hindsight, we should document how Bush screwed us and the Iraqis so we can prevent it in the future. If you think facing facts and bad decisions up front, and dealing with them up front is somehow distasteful, or profane or tiresome, step out of the way. More of the same from the source that got us where we are, somewhere no one, even George Bush, wants to be, is insane. Jim
Let's be fair here - I've made no statements that can be construed as obfuscatory or fearful of the facts of our current situation. I am simply bristled by the armchair quarterbacking of our resident amateur theologians, which turns into accusations of murder and the construction of elaborate, hate-filled, purposeless microcosms of reality to which everyone must subscribe or be labeled an ostrich. It remains a pointless, tiresome, utterly toxic and unnecessarily vulgar exercise.
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post #134 of 152 (permalink) Old 01-25-2007, 08:53 AM
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Don't foresake the advanced protective effects that can be derived from the strategic placement of garden gnomes and lawn jockeys. They are the first line of defense against terrorists, philosophers and pick-pockets. It's a known fact that Manhattan has no garden gnomes.
As you can clearly see Z has the right idea, it all lies with the lawn ornaments you choose.
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post #135 of 152 (permalink) Old 01-25-2007, 09:02 AM
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As you can clearly see Z has the right idea, it all lies with the lawn ornaments you choose.
Ah, another satisfied customer. Have you visited my website lately? The Underpants Gnomes are selling like hotcakes.
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post #136 of 152 (permalink) Old 01-25-2007, 09:05 AM
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I might not personally need to see the photo of the Cuban missiles, but I do need to have someone see them before they claim irrefutable proof and "a slam dunk".
Now there is a fine example of a genuine threat, not some concocted bullshit whipped up by the Bush administration and supported by a congress looking for 9/11 revenge (yes, that would come under the heading of 'bloodlust', as would the famous Rumsfeld quote). Iraq was about as much a threat to U.S. borders as Ming the Merciless from the planet Mongo. People were actually building underground bomb shelters in the 60s. How many folks here started construction on their anti-Iraq shelters? Dave? Anyone?

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post #137 of 152 (permalink) Old 01-25-2007, 09:22 AM
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This is the 'climate' to which I've been referring, that seems to be ignored at every turn. No matter what anyone's individual opinion is of how these facts were analyzed or acted upon, it's plainly evident to any fair minded individual that Iraq represented the 'clearest' danger at present, in the form of the one place in the world where immediate action could be taken that would prevent future terrorist attacks.
Ridiculous. How many terrorist attacks against the West had emanated from Iraq to date? Iraq would have been far down my list of terrorist threats, especially since they were already under our thumb at the time. Let's start with Iran, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria, Egypt, Sudan, N. Korea. Tell me how Iraq represented a greater threat to the security of the U.S. than any of those places? Let's just ignore the people and governments that bore some measure of responsibility for the 9/11 attack, and go after a disgruntled U.S. puppet and his legion of goat herders, right?

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post #138 of 152 (permalink) Old 01-25-2007, 09:34 AM
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.........The fact that Iraq HAD developed these weapons and used them in the past is NOT IN DISPUTE.

This is the 'climate' to which I've been referring, that seems to be ignored at every turn. No matter what anyone's individual opinion is of how these facts were analyzed or acted upon, it's plainly evident to any fair minded individual that Iraq represented the 'clearest' danger at present, in the form of the one place in the world where immediate action could be taken that would prevent future terrorist attacks...............Let me state for the record that I've no presupposition of either innocence or guilt, of any individual (much less the President), in this regard. My issue stems from those who do. As yet, I'm not inclined to believe that there existed what must have been an unimaginably vast conspiracy to convince the entire world that WMD's existed in Iraq.
What bristles the anti-war crowd is how the case was made and the singlemindedness with which the military invasion was pursued. While the whole world would agree that Saddam, at one time, had WMD and had used them, the whole world did not agree this was the case in March of 2003. The UN inspectors, who have been proven correct by the events that have passed, were very specifically not convinced Saddam had WMD. There was no credible evidence Saddam was in bed with Al-Qaeda, or that he was secretly pursuing nukes. In fact, it was clear to many in our spy organizations and other spy organizations that Saddam was first and foremost preoccupied with maintaining his iron grip on the control of Iraq, that he would not tolerate extremists competing with him for power and that his antics about military power were aimed at keeping Iran at bay. It was the other side of the coin and GWB disregarded it.

The quick to condemn him to being a blood thirsty murderer logic is founded in this conundrum. He sent Americans in harm's way without exploring the other side of the coin, and did so in such a hurried fashion we have created exactly the envirionment for fomenting and schooling terrorists to better understand how to successfully attack the nations of the free world. The accusations stem from finding it unfathomable that Bush could be so stupid and be twice elected (well, ...) to the office of President. The falling of America's stock on the world market that this has brought about is staggering. We may be seeing the ruin of America, or at least the forced retreat from having any real international influence. In six years. It is enough for some of us who love this country to hate George Bush. He is supposed to be our servant, to uphold our ideals as the founding fathers characterized them in Constitution. Instead he is dismantling the last two hundred years of built up goodwill in the world, ruining the identity and pride of our military, and trampling on the Constitution whenever it might be used to hold him accountable.

Not all of us who oppose this war are anti all possible wars. But this war is unique in its capacity for changing America for the worse, and so the opposition to this war is unique.

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Let's be fair here - I've made no statements that can be construed as obfuscatory or fearful of the facts of our current situation. I am simply bristled by the armchair quarterbacking of our resident amateur theologians, which turns into accusations of murder and the construction of elaborate, hate-filled, purposeless microcosms of reality to which everyone must subscribe or be labeled an ostrich. It remains a pointless, tiresome, utterly toxic and unnecessarily vulgar exercise.
Then, make that point. But to make that point in a tirade that defends the basic failures of the President puts you into that ostrich position. I can understand that the bloodlust and murder words are not necessary. They may be heartfelt as god knows there must an explanation for all this and that is just one hypothetical explanation. For many, that explanation isolates the problem and therefore there is comfort in that explantion, as bad as that seems to you. It can be understood and eliminated. If there is a different explanation we need to learn what it was so we can understand it and eliminate it. To do that requires an openness this Adminstration has been more than slightly reluctant to offer.

Being revolted and disgusted by our failure to respond effectively after 9-11 is the context, not hating America, or wanting to blame America. Jim
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post #139 of 152 (permalink) Old 01-25-2007, 10:29 AM
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Being revolted and disgusted by our failure to respond effectively after 9-11 is the context, not hating America, or wanting to blame America. Jim
Failure to respond effectively? Taliban deposed, most of Al Qaeda leadership dead or jailed. No successful subsequent attacks aginst the USA.

More failure, please.

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post #140 of 152 (permalink) Old 01-25-2007, 10:46 AM
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Ah yes, the ol "failure = success" shell game

Politicians rely heavily upon those with low expectations.
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