Originally Posted by QBNCGAR
......I'm talking about root cause analysis of the hatred embodied by a select few here, not an analysis of what has happened since 9/11 and whether or not any given plans were carried out properly.
At the root of all these arguments lies the new, twisted view that we should never have been in Iraq in the first place and our continuing presence there is nothing more than bloodlust...as if to say we were motoring happily along, when suddenly and for no reason whatsoever, the driver decided to take us straight into a schoolyard and start mowing down children.
This is massively, psychopathically, clinically deranged thinking - worthy of study, shock therapy, medication, and use of a straight jacket. People who really honestly believe this kind of shit do not belong in public - they represent a danger to themselves and others. It's toxic. It is ignorant first, and unhealthy by virtually any measure. It fails tests of reason, decency, common sense, and historical fact.
You have, and I would guess purposely as it makes your case easier that way, built your position using two unsupported concepts. First, you are apparently suggesting the invasion of Iraq was justified after 9-11-2001, yet you don't make any case for this concept. Given the fact that the United States has a limited capacity to engage its military around the globe, and we were already becoming bogged down in Afghanistan/Pakistan in our search for the perpetrators of the 9-11 attack on the United States, and that Saddam, as much as you may have disliked him personally, had Iraq under relatively tight control - a control model that did not allow for the presence of competition for power, like Al-Qaeda or Iranian supported trouble makers, Iraq was a pretty arbitrary selection for invading. As it turns out, we never got Osamma. Instead we got a quagmire in Iraq. Anyway, what was your point that invading Iraq was justified?
Your next unsupported concept is that someone suggested or believes we invaded Iraq because of some pent up bloodlust that finally just burst and we picked Iraq to satisfy this urge. I think there are much more realistic and nearly equally bewildering reasons for how we selected Iraq, that don't serve to support your contention that only mentally deficient people believe going into Iraq in the first place was an enormous error. Even if we cannot agree on why Iraq was chosen, the unfolding of events since we invaded clearly establish we would all have been better off if Monica Lewinski had just given George a Presidential blow job. Nearly anything George could have elected to do would have been better than invading Iraq at this point.
So, you have yet to justify your position that as events have unfolded, going into Iraq to search for, and control Sadddam's WMD cache so these WMD he had could not be used against America, is justified. Today. Once you make that case we can address the rest of your unfounded window dressing to make your case attractive.
Originally Posted by QBNCGAR
The ongoing rhetorical spewing of this disgusting nonsense is so utterly appalling that it borders on the profane. It's over the line, it's tiresome, it's insulting to the collective intelligence and memories of everyone here, it's irresponsible, and it serves no positive purpose whatsoever. There is no moral high ground in the posession of one who believes such hateful, destructive things of ourselves and the efforts of our military men and women - this is the epitome of "pig wallowing".
There you go again, smearing the military men and women serving the country. They do the President's bidding. That is the way it is set up. He is the Commander in Chief. So, when they engage in a mission that cannot be supported, it is not a critique of them. It is a criticism, and well deserved, of the Commander in Chief.
Now, once we take away your Red Herring, your self fashioned "deus ex machina" devised to buttress your posturing, your entire dragon's breath assault flames out. Let's just stick to the facts. We don't know anything about the actual reasons for Bush's Deus ex machina, the WMD fabrication, or the selection of Iraq, for sure, yet. It is coming though. I doubt it is just bursting of a boil of blood lust. Something equally unacceptable, especially considering the consequences, but not something so easily cast aside as nonsense.
Originally Posted by QBNCGAR
You're known by the company you keep. It's becoming increasingly clear that FTL is off the deep end here, and is no longer capable of viewing history or current events through an objective lens. I'd caution against assuming his words are based in fact, or worthy of reinforcement by your otherwise intelligent and reasoned opinion - particularly on this subject - simply because the validity of your message may be drowned by those who have long memories and are prone to consider the source when reading these threads.
FTL's perspective is a welcome relief to the view your side presents - which is all assholes as you bury your heads in the sand. The central issue we have here, between you and I, it seems, is whether or not invading Iraq can be considered justified based on today's 20-20 hindsight. Once we get that straight, and to do that we cannot offer new Deus ex machina devices like, having done something differently in the beginning of the invasion that we didn't actually do, since that does nothing but allow you to get bogged down in hypothetical situations with hypothetical solutions that can never be, we can try to understand that the original concept was invalid in October 2001 through March of 2003, right on up to January 2007.
A military solution is virtually off the table unless we can get strong international support. This is, afterall, a global war on terror, right? So where is the support from the rest of the globe? We cannot take on the rest of the globe successfully. A search for a diplomatic solution, while very difficult for us to attempt because cowboy Bush has no skills in that area himself, and therefore has not put much value in them for those in meaningful positions on his staff, must take over from the military solution crowd.
And, given today's 20-20 hindsight, we should document how Bush screwed us and the Iraqis so we can prevent it in the future. If you think facing facts and bad decisions up front, and dealing with them up front is somehow distasteful, or profane or tiresome, step out of the way. More of the same from the source that got us where we are, somewhere no one, even George Bush, wants to be, is insane. Jim