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post #41 of 77 (permalink) Old 12-31-2006, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by marlinspike
... Do you want us to quote a non-passage?
Ahh hell, that would do it for me!

In fact to save time, a non-quote of a non-passage from an un-named internet source would flip my burger.

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post #42 of 77 (permalink) Old 12-31-2006, 04:14 PM Thread Starter
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Really I didn't know, but that makes it clear too, as cows can have milk production damaged be loud and constant noise. But then they might be beef cows...
It's beef cattle. The place is a cow pasture being swallowed up by urbanization. The guy claims the Muslims made rude demands of him, that they wanted him to no longer graze his cattle on his own land. He called some fascist AM radio jock in Houston who made a big deal of his idea for pig races. Interestingly enough, the RWNJ jock got fired over it.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #43 of 77 (permalink) Old 12-31-2006, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by marlinspike
How the heck do you want someone to prove that something isn't there? Do you want us to quote a non-passage?
Yeah...kind of like the edge of the earth...it is flat you know.

How about killing off all infedels? Is it their duty?

Come in Prof. This guy would know.
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post #44 of 77 (permalink) Old 12-31-2006, 07:59 PM
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Yeah...kind of like the edge of the earth...it is flat you know.

How about killing off all infedels? Is it their duty?

Come in Prof. This guy would know.
No, see, with the edge of the earth you can look at it and see and say I was there it's flat. But if I told you I've read the Koran and it's not there, well you said that wouldn't be good enough so I would have to provide proof? How can I provide proof that something isn't there? The only way I can think to do it would be to type out everything that is there...but that would be no different than just having you read the entire Koran (in fact, it would be doing exactly that).
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post #45 of 77 (permalink) Old 12-31-2006, 08:30 PM
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No, see, with the edge of the earth you can look at it and see and say I was there it's flat. But if I told you I've read the Koran and it's not there, well you said that wouldn't be good enough so I would have to provide proof? How can I provide proof that something isn't there? The only way I can think to do it would be to type out everything that is there...but that would be no different than just having you read the entire Koran (in fact, it would be doing exactly that).

We do have some well read folks here. I figure someone would know if the muslims mission is to kill us all.
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post #46 of 77 (permalink) Old 12-31-2006, 08:39 PM
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We do have some well read folks here. I figure someone would know if the muslims mission is to kill us all.
The answer is no...the question is how do I prove it? The long and short of it is that Jews and Christians are "people of the Book" and are A-OK. Atheists and idolators are to be crushed IF they try to prevent believers from practicing. If they are leaving you alone, leave them alone, but it's not good to marry them.

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post #47 of 77 (permalink) Old 12-31-2006, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by marlinspike
Clerics who want peace tend not to get in the news.

Another thing is that only the uneducated view clerics as community leaders. A lot of Islam is about taking responsibility for your own morality and religion. There is no head of Islam like there is a pope. Mosques are to give people a place to gather in prayer, but really you don't need anything but a clean body and a clean area (or just a clean carpet) to pray. So, the only clerics who become big shots are ones who have basically tricked people into believing clerics should be big shots, and it is easier to trick the uneducated than the educated, and it is easier to trick people with "let's get them" instead of "everybody be good."
That's actually very true. When I traveled in Muslim countries I was told that imams are supposed to be regular people that lead people into prayer but they have a responsibility to update their scripture and hadith skills. Anything above those was considered political.
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post #48 of 77 (permalink) Old 12-31-2006, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by marlinspike
The answer is no...the question is how do I prove it? The long and short of it is that Jews and Christians are "people of the Book" and are A-OK. Atheists and idolators are to be crushed IF they try to prevent believers from practicing. If they are leaving you alone, leave them alone, but it's not good to marry them.
I found this quote
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" No Arab has superiority over a non-Arab, and no non-Arab has superiority over an Arab. No white person has superiority over a black person, and no black person has superiority over a white person. No man has superiority over a woman, and no woman has superiority over a man. The criteria for acceptance in the sight of God are righteousness and honest living." Prophet Muhammad's Farewell Sermon
How true is that marlinpike?
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post #49 of 77 (permalink) Old 12-31-2006, 08:53 PM
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The answer is no...the question is how do I prove it? The long and short of it is that Jews and Christians are "people of the Book" and are A-OK. Atheists and idolators are to be crushed IF they try to prevent believers from practicing.
That would be the moderate Sunni interpretation. This was the basic belief of most of the Sunni world before Arabs (mostly Sunni) got oil. Then the House of Saud bought-off the religious fanatics of their desert kingdom by promising them financial and state support if the mullahs would in turn, support Saud.

The acceptance by the mullahs resulted in Saud money supporting their evangelization efforts from the minority viewpoint of the Wahabbi sect, which is hostile to all non-Muslims, even those of "The Book." See the Koran, like the Bible, is stuffed with conflicting passages that are subject to huge differences in interpretation. So the Wahabbists tossed their own salad of their own ingredients and came-up with an especially violent interpretation.

Concomitantly, the House of saud came into more money than sense, which they used to fund Wahabbist missionary schools in every country that would accept them. Very poor, Sunni-dominated Muslim countries saw this as the fulfillment of one of the pillars of Islam and so, gladly accepted free education for their people, especially the poor. For teh first time many of these countries saw their poorest people acquiring the skills of literacy -- what's not to like about that?

Well, along with literacy the students also received an education comprising all of the virulence of Wahabbism. This has radicalized many thousands of the desperately poor Muslims around the world. They learned that peopel that Allah hates are destroying Islam and that the only righteous path is to struggle in the name of Islam against these satanic forces - Jihad means holy struggle. This indoctrination into the holy mysteries of wahabbist beliefs also served as a convenient source for recruits into violent Jihad. The Jihadi movement from within Wahabbism formed the base of the violent wing of Jihad. Arabic translation for "the base" is "Al Qaeda."

And here we are.

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post #50 of 77 (permalink) Old 12-31-2006, 10:19 PM
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That would be the moderate Sunni interpretation. This was the basic belief of most of the Sunni world before Arabs (mostly Sunni) got oil. Then the House of Saud bought-off the religious fanatics of their desert kingdom by promising them financial and state support if the mullahs would in turn, support Saud.
He was asking about Islam, not about politics.

And yes professor, that sounds about right, though I don't know how accurate it is since I know Iranians don't have a concept of white people and black people so I would be surprised if the Arabs did (in fact, my mom didn't even know about black people until she took a trip to England). But yes, as long as there is some basic monotheistic belief, the rest of judgement in Islam is entirely deeds based.

I should note that most (well, all, in my personal experience) Sunni's and Shiites don't care very much for Wahabbism, and if the US (and some other countries) weren't backing the Saud family they would have been overthrown by now. Then again, the Koran also forbids sectarianism since its only purpose is the corruption of religion for the gains of some at the expense of others...aren't people great?

Last edited by marlinspike; 12-31-2006 at 10:28 PM.
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