I really learned some new things today about Israel and Palestine and I thank you, but after reading your reply to what I said I have the feeling your tilt on the whole thing is based on some anti Isaeli thinking ( I think)
Well yes whenever someone approaches a taboo subject like this they are automatically either labeled anti-Semite or simply siding one side of the issue. I expected this, so I don't take it personal, this is the norm in our country when we debate this issue. Do you now understand how that lobby has succeeded? The extent of free speech does have limits when we look into our relationship with Israel a little deeper than what is sold to us.
I really didn'tt know the Israeli lobby was the ONLY one in the USA. However, you say that Neyanyahu's goal is to goad the USA into invading Iran.
Yes, you can google all you want about Natanyahu on Iraq and Iraq. He uses basically the same speech and methods for both cases. Last night he was on CNN, did you watch him cry to the public that he is not being heard? I felt really bad for him and I went straight to the phone to call my congressamn to send more of our kids to fight his fight.
OK, let's assume for the moment it is true for the sake of argument at least. Why would he want to do it? To me that's an easy one, he has heard Ahmadinejad say in Iran that he wants Israel wiped off the face of the map. You hear some guy who's the leader of Iran, who is busy makeing his own nukes say that about you, wouldn't YOU be scared too - and do everything you could to ensure it didn't happen, to ensure your country Israel isn't wiped out, in sheer numbers of population you have a small fraction of their army, so maybe you'd ask your friends to help you, and if that didn't work, try to get them by persuasio to help you? So, then he's trying to convince Bush to help him save Israel from extermination by invading the place threatening him, which is Iran.
A crude ploy perhaps, but I dont blame him for trying it.
At our expenses of course. We are not talking about a simple invasion, an in and out then thank you mam. Have we not learnt a thing from Iraq? Do you think the only card on the table is war? Iran is not an angel but it's not a real threat to us, maybe to Israel but not the USA. Again, that's my opinion so don't count on my assesment. Having said that, where are all the billions of dollars we gave to Israel to build itself to a mighty power? Can't they use them now to defend themselves on their own? Were they humbled by Hezbollah that they have no real will to fight anymore? I guess it's easier to send our boys instead
I've never been to that part of the world personally, (though once back in about '83 I had a chance to go R/T for $600 on a presbyterian church trip because Israel was desparate for tourists that Christmas, a very heavy terrorist season was happening at the time. So I didn't go. I get the idea either you have gone or know it lots better than me.
I have, my step dad is a US government employee and we traveled as kid for different assignments. Then years later I worked in that region for several international agnecies. So I know what I am talking about and have seen the way they live and how they are treated.
But even if so, I doubt your claim that Palestine was set up as a concentration camp for Palestinians by the Jews. That sounds unbelievable (if you meant that.)
Just think about it. We are talking about the Gaza strip. All movemnet in or out even to Egypt is controlled. There no more Jews in the strip for a reason. That reason was not to give more land to the Palestinians it was to make sure that whenever Israel hit targets inside of Gaza no Jews will be killed in retalliation. So the intent is clear.
They had, in times of peace, the right to travel freely to Israel and Jerusalem, subject only to security checks for ID and hidden bombs and weapons, sounds OK to me....
Not really, that's another fable. Apartheid is the rule there, you don't belive me go read Jimmy Carter's new book.
You glossed over someof the other points I made (Im only working here on one window so I cant go back and forth point by point) so I guess you don't dispute them. One is that indeed the Palestineans are treated like dirt in Saudi, they are Both Arabs,k right, (or are the Sunni Wahabi sect different and superior to the Palestinians, and therefore dirt) so the Saudis with their millions and millions, could give them good jobs, education and a shot at a decent life in Saudi, even if if was 2nd class to their millionaire lifestyle? They could, but didn't, happy to let them stand by and suffer, and become embittered terrorists and hostage takers.
Yes but you have to understand the Saudis don't see Palestinians as Saudis. Logical no? They are Arabs but each belong in different region. Let me give you an example, suppose we get kicked out of the US by Mexicans, can we go to England and ask them to automatically make us British citizens? Can we use up their resources because we claim British roots?
And just for the record, let's be CLEAR that Palestinian hostage taking, the Klinghoffer murder, Munich 1972, terrorist acts against the USA or Israel does NOTHING to endear USA or Israel for sympathy, if well deserved to the Palestinian cause for their "homeland"
That's how they saw their resistance as ligitamte. I am not siding them on this one but they modeled after many other guerilla groups. Some of these groups are called freedom fighters when it suits us.
So a few thousand of them lost their homes in 1948 but didn;t give up their deeds? Give me a break. Even I know this very land has been contested for 3000 years, who got there first? The Palestinian Arabs might actually lose that one, too, because the Islamic religion only got started in 622 AD, bnut Judaism existed for a couple of thousand years BC., so maybe they had the land first, the Islamics took it from them and built the Dome of the Rock over their Temple, and now the Jews got the land back again.
Hell we took this land from the Indians just a few hundred years ago, what's your point? The Palestinians are native to that region before the Phoenicians if you want to go that far. Some Palestinians have Jewish roots too. By the way, about 40% of the Palestinians are Christians, did you know that? Maybe not since you already have an imprinted image of rampanging ugly Arabns after Israeli blood. Sorry but that's the way they are portrayed by the media and others.
There is nothing about the Palestinians that prevents them fronm getting an education, emigrating to the USA like the jews did, we welcome all foreigners, in theory anyhow. Sorry to profile them but instead just toomany commited acts of terror, so they will be scrutinised now, harder. That's just bad luck for them. But we have plenty of Jordanians here in Calif, Lebanese too, and look at all those good Syrians and Iraqis living in Detroit, Afghanis in Fremont. Calif.
It's not easy to immigrate to the US but why run? why do we have to accpet that a group of people should or must disperse for the good of another that just happened to claim their land? Where is the logic? What are the drivers?
And from my Jewish friends and college I do know one thing about Judaism, it embraces a reverence for knowledge like few other faiths do, and hence, an abnormal success rate for Jewish professionals. in the arts, journalism, politics, law, finance and business.
Youve got to admit the result of that success is in many ways antisemitism!
Everybody has equal rights to success. There is nothing wrong with that.
In the same way the teeming Palestinian people in the camps are seen by many whose only skills are limited to milking a goat and stripping down an AK 47, neither of which makes them prime candidates for an H 1 Visa to the USA, right?
I think you are losing me here. But when opportuty is not given in an equal manner you end up with a uber class that controls the under class. This is true anywhere and anytime in history
I'll post this now and them go back and look again at what you wrote in red, maybe I can add more.
I think you have an interesting POV but unlike mr BTNST I don't dismiss it out of hand, we agree on some things I think, but to be honest with you I think you lean WAAAY to far in the Arab or anti jewish point of view towards Israel.
Again, read my statement at the begining. Anyone will be labeled as such whenever they side for a split second the Palestinaians on real issues not terrorism. We are Americans and we usually like the underdog but not when it comes to Palestinians, I wonder why? Am I being "anti Jewish" for saying so?
Understand I do NOT tghink you are unpatriotic. Cut a wide swath arounhjd Kamil, he's just another self absorbed kid, mere dust in the wind
Leave my cousin Kamil out off this, he is a good kid!