A new 30 years' war? - Page 4 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #31 of 39 (permalink) Old 12-18-2006, 07:22 PM
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Okay Professor, I apologise. Mea culpa. Let's have a civilised discussion.
That's much better thank you. Now about the two state solution versus total assimilation what's your take? I ask you because I know that you can bring value to the table. So please forgive my outburst too I have a low threshold for false accusations.
I think it's imperative that Israel settles its issues with the Arabs as I strongly believe that almost every problem in the ME is tied up to this conflict. If we help nip the bud but if Muslims keep at their perceived forced islamazation of everything that grows on this planet then shame on them but right now I think we have allowed a land dispute feed the religious zealots on all sides. So when DeathRattle calls this post the 30 years war he may be very well on target.
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post #32 of 39 (permalink) Old 12-18-2006, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by FeelTheLove
No, an Israeli response is not the easy way out - the possibilty of environmental damage and fallout drifting into Russia is too great. The US, Russia and China may be forced to act jointly and invade Iran in order to keep nukes from going off. The only way to insure they produce no weapons is to flood the country with troops. A'mInsaneJihad is making this inevitable. He cannot exist, however, without the complete backing of The Old Mullahs, so they all have to be fucking nuts too. It is so sad we have this immense danger in front of us and our actions in Iraq may now cause us to make all the wrong moves.
This has to be years away and will require very strong evidence, not more WMD baloney. There is zero political will in US and Europe for invasive war. Everything favors Iran. There is absolutely no way the current US electorate will buy into the need for more war, especially if there is a draft, so that means Bush has to do it. It will not happen.
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post #33 of 39 (permalink) Old 12-18-2006, 07:29 PM
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Whatever.

This is worth reading on the topic of all or nothing war:

http://www.theobjectivestandard.com/...or-victory.asp
Excellent article. This is snippet right on the money:
"
Americans, and all lovers of civilization, must realize something: We can do this. This is not some Platonic ideal, good in theory but unattainable in practice. We Americans can—and must—re-establish our integrity by re-uniting our ideals and our actions. History is on our side here. In relative terms, the physical forces facing America and her allies in 1941 were far more formidable than those we face today, and America then was far weaker militarily. In our own day, the technological and industrial superiority of the U.S. over the Middle East is staggering. Islamic warriors can shoot an AK-47, but they cannot build one; all of the arms possessed by Islamic countries come from outside those countries. They are pathetically weak; the American army ended the regime of Saddam Hussein in three weeks, after Iran could not beat him in eight years. Our overwhelming material advantage, however, will be of no help if we lack the will to drop a bomb—or if we use our forces to strengthen our enemies. As it was for Germany and Japan in the 1930s, so it is today: The power of the Islamic Totalitarians grows every day that we wait. The strategic balance will shift—the Islamic Totalitarians will have the capacity as well as the will to bring about the nuclear Armageddon that they so deeply crave—if Iran acquires nuclear bombs. It is not a kindness to wait, knowing that our response will have to be even more lethal after a mushroom cloud rises over American soil. To wait, in light of that knowledge, is irrational—criminally irrational.

The need to understand the gravity of this situation—and our capacity to prevent a catastrophe—is particularly urgent at this moment in time. It is obvious that the defeat of the Republicans in the 2006 mid-term elections was a repudiation of President Bush’s policies in this war. But it is more important to understand that President Bush has not mounted an offensive strategy, and that an offensive strategy is not the reason why American troops are dying in Iraq. There has been no drive to victory, only a string of casualties and the progressive discouragement of the American people. As a result, our primary enemy has been strengthened, and allowed to address the world as a leader just a few blocks from Ground Zero in New York City. (Imagine Hitler being granted this privilege.) Bush’s war strategy of non-war has resulted in a functional paralysis caused by our self-imposed failure to identify and confront open and avowed enemies.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #34 of 39 (permalink) Old 12-18-2006, 07:44 PM
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That's much better thank you. Now about the two state solution versus total assimilation what's your take? I ask you because I know that you can bring value to the table. So please forgive my outburst too I have a low threshold for false accusations.
I think it's imperative that Israel settles its issues with the Arabs as I strongly believe that almost every problem in the ME is tied up to this conflict. If we help nip the bud but if Muslims keep at their perceived forced islamazation of everything that grows on this planet then shame on them but right now I think we have allowed a land dispute feed the religious zealots on all sides. So when DeathRattle calls this post the 30 years war he may be very well on target.


I'm pessimistic. I see no solution. I doubt if we will agree on the reasons. I would have agreed entirely with you a few years back, for what it's worth, regarding the possibility of a peaceful settlement.

The fact that so much seems to depend on this, by historical standards, minor land dispute is in my view instructive. Why do you think so much depends on it? Who puts so much importance on it, and why? Why is there not more attention given to, for example, Tibet, where the Han Chinese have invaded and are systematically destroying an ancient culture?
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post #35 of 39 (permalink) Old 12-18-2006, 07:47 PM
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Because the Middle East has oil, while Tibet, er, not so much. Get those buddists off their asses and get them to punching some holes in the ground.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #36 of 39 (permalink) Old 12-18-2006, 07:54 PM
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Excellent article.
I was impressed but shocked by this article, I admit. It paints a horrific dilemma, at the same time highlighting our weakness to act where it is absolutely necessary to do so - to act humanely. I took his argument as saying that a third way between appeasement and total war is, according to this thesis, impossible, but perhaps the folly of Iraq is actually neither of these: a third way worse than either.
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post #37 of 39 (permalink) Old 12-18-2006, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by jjl
I was impressed but shocked by this article, I admit. It paints a horrific dilemma, at the same time highlighting our weakness to act where it is absolutely necessary to do so - to act humanely. I took his argument as saying that a third way between appeasement and total war is, according to this thesis, impossible, but perhaps the folly of Iraq is actually neither of these: a third way worse than either.

You are searching far too hard for a definitive, just like the author.
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post #38 of 39 (permalink) Old 12-18-2006, 08:06 PM
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I'm pessimistic. I see no solution. I doubt if we will agree on the reasons. I would have agreed entirely with you a few years back, for what it's worth, regarding the possibility of a peaceful settlement.

The fact that so much seems to depend on this, by historical standards, minor land dispute is in my view instructive. Why do you think so much depends on it? Who puts so much importance on it, and why? Why is there not more attention given to, for example, Tibet, where the Han Chinese have invaded and are systematically destroying an ancient culture?

FTL mentions oil but there is no known reserves of oil in Israel, Jordan or Lebanon. We are locked in place because of a strong Israeli lobby in the United States. We are torn because we have to show fairness in front of the Saudis which have oil but do not view Israel as a state that should exist. The land dispute is religiously driven by orthodox Jews and Muslim fundamentalist but the losers in all this are the moderate Jews and the Palestinians that are either Christians or Muslims that could have given a little fk. When we ignored the plea of the thousands of Palestinians that were uprooted we in effect germinated much of the terrorist seeds that sprout in that region and beyond. Why were we so blind? Why are we still blind? Go ask AIPAC that gives sensitivity and shame exams to our newly elected representatives in congress. No one dares challenge the existence and practices of a foreign lobby in our soil. If you do, the anti-Semite label will swiftly come out and ruin you if you are a politician.
The reason that region will keep festering is that because we don’t have the courage to stand up to our own demons nor the courage to tell the Saudis to behave in the interest of that region and promote bridging with Israel. jjl you bring up the massacres that the Arabs perpetuated on the Jews but you have to understand that the Arabs will bring up equal examples and there will be no end in sight for real courage to let humanity prevail.
Am I pessimistic? Yes. Do I see an end to all this? It’s possible only if we stop siding one group and deal with this issue by having all stakeholders involved. Right now we are being told who we should negotiate with and who to shun. This is in no way getting us any closer to a ME resolution. Someone wants to perpetuate this status quo and if that’s the case I would like to withdraw my payments.

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post #39 of 39 (permalink) Old 12-18-2006, 08:32 PM
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Au contraire my friend, while Israel has no oil it is a great coastline nicely adjacent to NATO. If we had trouble in both Egypt and Saudi Arabia, we would be forced to navigate Africa or send in troops from the Pacific if we lost the Suez Canal, but how nice to have a nice friendly spot to unload boatloads of troops adjacent to it and with in a short tank drive to Mecca, yes a nice little spot already in the hands of troops armed to the fucking eyeballs with our best weapons. Lebanon is more of the same, and a possible base for an enemy to flank our landing forces, so we want that too. Jordan, well who cares, I don't think we will do much more than drive over it.

Hey, you can attack the Israelis all day, they do all kinds of rotten shit, but hey, like Roosevelt said about Daddy Somoza, he may be a bastard, but that's ok, he's our bastard.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address

Last edited by FeelTheLove; 12-18-2006 at 08:35 PM.
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