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post #21 of 50 (permalink) Old 12-11-2006, 12:13 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by GermanStar
When does Gore mention "slavery"? I must have missed it. And can you explain how you see slavery as "strategic" as it relates to the Iraq invasion? For example, I do see the Japanese internment camps of WWII as "strategic" (although I believe Mr. Gore's comment was intended to address international strategy), but I fail to see slavery in that same light, abominable as it was.
He doesn't mention slavery. That's the point. He uses superlatives with reckless abandon - a habit rather unbecoming of one who aspired to lead the world's lone remaining superpower.

I for one would consider the operation in Iraq largely tactical in nature...whereas the use of slaves (state sponsored, in fact, despite the hair-splitting that the lefties have embarked upon vis-a-vis the "it wasn't a federal policy" argument) was a strategy that facilitated the economic growth of our nation by allowing farmers to mass-produce goods with virtually no recurring labor costs. This was strategic, because no other industry or indeed any other nation embarking upon industrialization had the benefit of free labor. Slavery was as much about the exploitation of an entire race for economic gain as it was about the oppression of a people - perhaps moreso.

Bottom line: The richest among us have long been the policymakers...they serve their own purposes. Slavery helped facilitate that which you all bemoan today - the elimination of the middle class (rich get richer, poor get poorer).

Slavery was about greed. Policies facilitating slavery were entirely strategic (at least insofar as "strategic" refers to a broad plan of "tactical" activities). I don't think it unfair to argue that slavery was a far more egregious mistake than our invasion of Iraq.

And Al Gore is a useless idiot for stammering through a 3 minute interview with Matt Lauer, setting Iraq as the high-water mark for incompetence in the history of our government, and failing to succinctly address a softball question from the ultimate fluffmaster about how he'd deal with the issue.
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post #22 of 50 (permalink) Old 12-11-2006, 12:23 PM
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Iraq is an extremely high-water mark for incompetence in the history of our government, and your introduction of other largely incomparable episodes strikes me as argumentative, unproductive, and essentially irrelevant. Sadly, the only true solution involves the use of a time machine. In lieu of that, we can only consider a variety of damage control measures. For a handful of votes in 2000, Gore may have been president, and we would not have invaded Iraq. I cannot imagine anything he may have done that could equal or exceed the scope of that fiasco.


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post #23 of 50 (permalink) Old 12-11-2006, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by GermanStar
Iraq is an extremely high-water mark for incompetence in the history of our government, ...
That's one of those matters of opinion thingies stated as fact.
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post #24 of 50 (permalink) Old 12-11-2006, 01:45 PM
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Read your Constitution.

In order to get the southern states into the union the northern states agreed to slavery on the condition (as a gentleman's agreement) that the southern states would phase-out the slave trade and finally, slavery itself. The southern states, led by Thomas Jefferson and opposed by George Washington, broke the gentleman's agreement. Of the founding fathers who were southerners I believe only one, George Washington, set-up schools to educate his slaves and gave them manumission on his death. For those slaves too old to work after manumission, Washington set-up what amounted to a retirement plan.

The rest of the southern "gentlemen" opposed Washington's education of slaves and their manumission. Jefferson was instrumental in leading the Virginia legislature to pass laws forbidding education of slaves.

The issue was settled with great finality in 1865. Later formalized by amendment.
This is the stupidest discussion I have ever participated in on this forum.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #25 of 50 (permalink) Old 12-11-2006, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by QBNCGAR
He doesn't mention slavery. That's the point. He uses superlatives with reckless abandon - a habit rather unbecoming of one who aspired to lead the world's lone remaining superpower.

I for one would consider the operation in Iraq largely tactical in nature...whereas the use of slaves (state sponsored, in fact, despite the hair-splitting that the lefties have embarked upon vis-a-vis the "it wasn't a federal policy" argument) was a strategy that facilitated the economic growth of our nation by allowing farmers to mass-produce goods with virtually no recurring labor costs. This was strategic, because no other industry or indeed any other nation embarking upon industrialization had the benefit of free labor. Slavery was as much about the exploitation of an entire race for economic gain as it was about the oppression of a people - perhaps moreso.

Bottom line: The richest among us have long been the policymakers...they serve their own purposes. Slavery helped facilitate that which you all bemoan today - the elimination of the middle class (rich get richer, poor get poorer).

Slavery was about greed. Policies facilitating slavery were entirely strategic (at least insofar as "strategic" refers to a broad plan of "tactical" activities). I don't think it unfair to argue that slavery was a far more egregious mistake than our invasion of Iraq.

And Al Gore is a useless idiot for stammering through a 3 minute interview with Matt Lauer, setting Iraq as the high-water mark for incompetence in the history of our government, and failing to succinctly address a softball question from the ultimate fluffmaster about how he'd deal with the issue.
Did Gore even mention slavery? Isn't the only reason you are bringing it up is because it is the only thing you can even remotely connect to the clusterfuck of Iraq? And how was it a foreign policy disaster?

Gore is right, this is the worst strategic descision in 200 years. Since I minored in history, I can even give you a snopsis of US strategic foreign policy blunders in the last 200 years:

The War of 1812

The failure to annex Mexico after the Mexican War

The failure to invade Canada in 1865 when we had the military strength to kick the British out of North America

Isolationism/failure to join the League of Nations in the 1920's

Truman's/MacArthur's failure to prepare for Chinese entry into the Korean War

The Vietnam War

The War in Iraq

Those are strategic blunders.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address

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post #26 of 50 (permalink) Old 12-11-2006, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Botnst
That's one of those matters of opinion thingies stated as fact.
You are becoming more and more isolated in that opinion. The Baker Commission report is a stinging rebuke of failure. The books "Hubris" and "Fiasco" portray the most inept, criminal enterprise in US foreign policy history. The end of this is simple: we are going to lose this war. We will not bring stabilty to Iraq. We have only made our enemies stronger. Only fools are left now who see that as "opinion". It s a fucking fact, jack.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #27 of 50 (permalink) Old 12-11-2006, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QBNCGAR
He doesn't mention slavery. That's the point. He uses superlatives with reckless abandon - a habit rather unbecoming of one who aspired to lead the world's lone remaining superpower.

I for one would consider the operation in Iraq largely tactical in nature...whereas the use of slaves (state sponsored, in fact, despite the hair-splitting that the lefties have embarked upon vis-a-vis the "it wasn't a federal policy" argument) was a strategy that facilitated the economic growth of our nation by allowing farmers to mass-produce goods with virtually no recurring labor costs. This was strategic, because no other industry or indeed any other nation embarking upon industrialization had the benefit of free labor. Slavery was as much about the exploitation of an entire race for economic gain as it was about the oppression of a people - perhaps moreso.

Bottom line: The richest among us have long been the policymakers...they serve their own purposes. Slavery helped facilitate that which you all bemoan today - the elimination of the middle class (rich get richer, poor get poorer).

Slavery was about greed. Policies facilitating slavery were entirely strategic (at least insofar as "strategic" refers to a broad plan of "tactical" activities). I don't think it unfair to argue that slavery was a far more egregious mistake than our invasion of Iraq.

And Al Gore is a useless idiot for stammering through a 3 minute interview with Matt Lauer, setting Iraq as the high-water mark for incompetence in the history of our government, and failing to succinctly address a softball question from the ultimate fluffmaster about how he'd deal with the issue.
Tactical in nature? Tactical? You have got to be kidding me. I think Gore is way to cerebal for you - try "My Pet Goat" for something on your level.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #28 of 50 (permalink) Old 12-11-2006, 02:11 PM
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This is the stupidest discussion I have ever participated in on this forum.
Thanks for your invaluable addition.
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post #29 of 50 (permalink) Old 12-11-2006, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by FeelTheLove
You are becoming more and more isolated in that opinion. The Baker Commission report is a stinging rebuke of failure. The books "Hubris" and "Fiasco" portray the most inept, criminal enterprise in US foreign policy history. The end of this is simple: we are going to lose this war. We will not bring stabilty to Iraq. We have only made our enemies stronger. Only fools are left now who see that as "opinion". It s a fucking fact, jack.
Why bother with differences in perspective? You sound like a pope speaking from god's holy word.
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post #30 of 50 (permalink) Old 12-11-2006, 02:15 PM
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Hey, I got an idea, let's read what Gore really said!

Matt Lauer: "Let's get more now reaction from former Vice President Al Gore whose documentary about global warming called An Inconvenient Truth is now available, by the way, on DVD. Vice President Gore, good to have you here."

Al Gore: "Good morning, Matt."

Lauer: "So you know, probably, what we know about this Iraq Study Group's report. What stands out in your mind?"

Gore: "Well I haven't read it yet. I've read some of the newspaper accounts. There are a lot of very good people who are part of the group but whether it's a lowest-common denominator committee result or not I really don't know. The fact is this is a very bad situation. Our country has to find a way to get our troops out as quickly as possible without making the situation worse, even worse in the manner of our leaving."

Lauer: "So it's being described by some as 'cut and stay,' as opposed to 'cut and run.' Does it do enough to acknowledge the results of the midterm election and, and the message that voters were sending this administration, if these are listened to, these recommendations?"

Gore: "Well the, the report this morning is actually one of several studies. There's one in the Pentagon. There has reportedly been one the White House itself is ginning up."

Lauer: "The NSA."

Gore: "And they're all basically saying the same thing, Matt. This is an utter disaster, this was the worst strategic mistake in the entire history of the United States and now we, as a nation, have to find a way in George Mitchell's words to manage a disaster. But I would urge the President not to, to try to separate out the, the, the personal issues of being, of being blamed in history for this mistake and instead recognize it's not about him, it's about our country and we all have to find a way to get our troops home and, and to prevent a regional conflagration there."

Lauer: "So, so two quick things then, would you pull, if you were president, would you pull U.S. troops out now even if it was seen as a military defeat?"

Gore: "Well if I were president I would have the full flow of information and have and test each of these options to see what kind of give. This, this is the equivalent of a car wreck and when it is in the process of happening you make, you make judgments in the moment. Now, in fact, the option of winning militarily, according to former Secretary Rumsfeld is, is gone. The, the stated goal of a military victory has gone the way of weapons of mass destruction. No longer exists."

Lauer: "This is obviously gonna be a huge issue in 2008 for whoever's running for president, Iraq and radical Islam. Another issue that you want to see as a major issue is the environment, in particular, global warming. Are you hearing any one out there who may be thinking of running for president spending enough time and energy talking about this issue to satisfy you?"

Gore: "Global warming?"

Lauer: "Yeah."

Gore: "No, not yet but it's early. And here's the linkage between those issues Matt. We are, I mean the climate crisis is caused by the burning of all these fossil fuels and our entanglement in the Persian Gulf region, where the biggest proven reserves are to be found, is linked to it. Here's a second linkage. There were clear warnings before the decision to invade Iraq that it was gonna be a catastrophe. This was predictable. And the, the head of the Army said, 'We don't have enough troops.' Others said this is a terrible mistake. And now what we're seeing with this report and all of the others is a situation that really where there are no good outcomes because the warnings were-"

Lauer: "So you're saying the global warming, the warnings are now and if we don't heed that advice we're gonna have the same situation?"

Gore: "Except infinitely worse, because, imagine on a global scale a nearly irretrievable situation. We still have time to avoid the mistakes that are creating this climate crisis."

Lauer: "What, what it makes me think is, from your point of view, if you were to run for president you could take this issue to the next level, even during just a campaign. And if you were fortunate enough to win the presidency you'd sit in the most powerful office in the free world with a real chance to make, you could be in a position to save the planet, without putting too much emphasis on it. Wouldn't that be enough of a reason to run for president for you?"

Gore: "Well I appreciate the impulse behind the question. I am not planning to run for president again. I'm involved in a different kind of campaign to change the minds of the people here, in our country, and around the world on why the climate crisis is the most serious crisis we've ever faced and why we have to move into a completely different way of approaching it."

Lauer: "But as someone who feels as passionately about the subject as you do and your documentary is evidence of that, why pass up the opportunity to have that world stage again? Because although you're a former Vice President, being a sitting president would give you a much higher and much more powerful platform."

Gore: "Well again I, I appreciate that very much. I, I'm not making plans to do it. I have no intention to do it. I haven't completely ruled it out-"

Lauer: "Will you rule it out?"

Gore: "-at some point in the future."

Lauer: "You won't sit here and say, 'Matt I will not run in 2008?'"

Gore: "No but that's merely because I'm, I was in it for a long time. I'm in the process of sort of shifting gears on this but I do not, I seriously do not have any intention of doing it and this, this climate crisis is my focus. I want to change people's minds on this so that the people who do run, in both parties, will encounter Americans who say, 'Look you have got to make this your top priority.'"

Lauer: "The New York Times said earlier this week that, 'Barack Obama has the potential of upending the race more than any other Democrat short, perhaps of,' you. Alright? So A.) Is Barack Obama the man to meet and the man to beat and, and what are the chances that someone reaches out to you and makes a phone call and gets you to upend this race?"

Gore: "Well I think it's still too early. I can't use that answer much longer."

Lauer: "Right."

Gore: "But I do think it's still too early to evaluate the potential candidates who, who are planning, who look as if they're planning to run. And I hope that all of them, in both parties, will address the climate crisis. I think that this Iraq disaster is, is not gonna wait until 2008 or 2010 or whatever they're talking about here and this is unfolding very rapidly. This is even worse than a civil war. But the climate crisis, again, is infinitely more serious and we need to make it a bipartisan issue. We need to engage people around the country. There are house parties all around the country on December 16th on, focused on getting more people to see this DVD. And if you want to host a house party you can go to Algore.com. This is a bipartisan effort to change the way we deal with the most serious issue we've ever confronted."

Lauer: "Former Vice President Al Gore. Appreciate you being in the studio today, thanks very much."

Gore: "Thanks very much, Matt."

Lauer: "And if you're interested in seeing An Inconvenient Truth, as we mentioned it is now available on DVD."

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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