Liberalizing Arabs - Page 3 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #21 of 55 (permalink) Old 12-09-2006, 04:54 PM
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The oddest part of the whole argument is that the Baathists were the "liberals" in the Middle East. He kills them, and then wonders where they all are.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

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post #22 of 55 (permalink) Old 12-09-2006, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by FeelTheLove
The oddest part of the whole argument is that the Baathists were the "liberals" in the Middle East. He kills them, and then wonders where they all are.
That's because they "posed" a threat to Israel. Watch how the history books will take this subject on.
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post #23 of 55 (permalink) Old 12-09-2006, 05:47 PM
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Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #24 of 55 (permalink) Old 12-09-2006, 06:41 PM
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then you go and dig an article that started with a stupid sentence
Moderator, please remove this thread as it contains the name "Dig".

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post #25 of 55 (permalink) Old 12-09-2006, 08:53 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by FeelTheLove
The oddest part of the whole argument is that the Baathists were the "liberals" in the Middle East. He kills them, and then wonders where they all are.
The Baath party started as a pan-Arabist, non-sectarian socialist, illiberal experiment. It got hijacked by despotic dictators who turned it into a typical socialist one-party, police state.

B
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post #26 of 55 (permalink) Old 12-09-2006, 09:21 PM
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So was Ataturk's Turkey in the 1920! Jeesus man, are you guys ignorant. Where are the Turks now, Bot? This is the problem with you guys, you got utopian fantasies of imposing American conservatism and Jeffersonian democracy on Arabs, when the real world can show you exactly how Muslim states become Democratic. They need a period like that to wring Islam out of the political body, which is just what Saddam Hussein was doing. The reaction to that would eventually be democracy for these people. If your fuckers had actually knew what they were doing in Iraq, they would have allowed a reformed Baath party to operate - it was the only party with both Sunni, Shiite and Arab Chrisitian support, and kept Islam out of the Constitution of Iraq - instead they did the exact opposite, and now we are going to lose. It is the reason we are going to lose. It was the fundemental mistake, it would have prevented the insurgency and the new sectarian power struggle and given these people a chance.

Like Z is trying to tell you, simple logic. Nothing hard here. Jettison your utopian fantasies. Bush's attempt to combine Islam with democracy in Iraq is like trying to put a pig's dick on a crow. Why were all the Islamic Republicans in Iran when Iraq was ruled by Saddam? Because he was going to kill them, that's why, and believe it or not, in that society, that's a good thing. Instead, your idiots put the bastards in charge. Same mistake Carter made when Khomeni knocked off the Shah.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address

Last edited by FeelTheLove; 12-09-2006 at 09:38 PM.
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post #27 of 55 (permalink) Old 12-10-2006, 06:18 AM
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Originally Posted by FeelTheLove
So was Ataturk's Turkey in the 1920! Jeesus man, are you guys ignorant. Where are the Turks now, Bot? This is the problem with you guys, you got utopian fantasies of imposing American conservatism and Jeffersonian democracy on Arabs, when the real world can show you exactly how Muslim states become Democratic. They need a period like that to wring Islam out of the political body, which is just what Saddam Hussein was doing. The reaction to that would eventually be democracy for these people. If your fuckers had actually knew what they were doing in Iraq, they would have allowed a reformed Baath party to operate - it was the only party with both Sunni, Shiite and Arab Chrisitian support, and kept Islam out of the Constitution of Iraq - instead they did the exact opposite, and now we are going to lose. It is the reason we are going to lose. It was the fundemental mistake, it would have prevented the insurgency and the new sectarian power struggle and given these people a chance.

Like Z is trying to tell you, simple logic. Nothing hard here. Jettison your utopian fantasies. Bush's attempt to combine Islam with democracy in Iraq is like trying to put a pig's dick on a crow. Why were all the Islamic Republicans in Iran when Iraq was ruled by Saddam? Because he was going to kill them, that's why, and believe it or not, in that society, that's a good thing. Instead, your idiots put the bastards in charge. Same mistake Carter made when Khomeni knocked off the Shah.
I agree with much of that. However, the veneer of democracy in Turkey is just that, and like everywhere else in the muslim world resurgent islam is eroding any state-imposed 'secularism' - sneer quotes here given the oppression of all other religions in Turkey and the denial of the Armenian and Asyrrian Christian genocide, 'Mein Kampf' a bestseller, etc. Even without the gross incompetence of Iraq the prognosis for democray in the ME, sans Israel, is weak to non-existent (democracy is 'shirk' after all, taking man-made laws before God's). 'Fuck the Jews' Baker's plan is a blueprint for more utter failure, for different reasons. The central myth/delusion here is that we imagine that there is anything we can do to stop the Jihad - throw them the Jews, let Iran have nukes to establish a MAD doctine, etc etc. There isn't, and the folly of this will be obvious in the years to come.
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post #28 of 55 (permalink) Old 12-10-2006, 09:50 AM
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The Turks are not the shining light of democracy, no doubt about it, but they are much,much further along than the rest of the Middle East and as they begin to enjoy the material wealth that brings, they should do nothing but become more Westernized as a culture. Sure they will have their nuts, but hell, we got ours too, it comes with the territory - what I am taking about is a fundamental difference in their Constitutions. Turkey forbids Islam from having anything to do with Civil Government. The Iraqi Constitution, written fundamentally by Iranian spies, enshrines Islam as the "supreme law of Iraq" without spelling out exactly what that means. This will never be a stable society

So far the best idea I have heard for ending the violence in Iraq is to free Tariq Aziz, the Arab Christian who was Saddam's foreign minister, and allow him to reconstitute a legalized Baath Party and be it's representative in negotiations. This would end the insurgency in western Iraq and give them incentive to dispose of the Al-Quedistas in Anbar who have become the insurgents allies of convenience. To not do so means Al Queda will become stronger, not weaker, as time goes on.

The next step would then be to partition this fucked up place.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address

Last edited by FeelTheLove; 12-10-2006 at 09:54 AM.
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post #29 of 55 (permalink) Old 12-11-2006, 05:38 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FeelTheLove
The Turks are not the shining light of democracy, no doubt about it, but they are much,much further along than the rest of the Middle East and as they begin to enjoy the material wealth that brings, they should do nothing but become more Westernized as a culture. Sure they will have their nuts, but hell, we got ours too, it comes with the territory - what I am taking about is a fundamental difference in their Constitutions. Turkey forbids Islam from having anything to do with Civil Government. The Iraqi Constitution, written fundamentally by Iranian spies, enshrines Islam as the "supreme law of Iraq" without spelling out exactly what that means. This will never be a stable society

So far the best idea I have heard for ending the violence in Iraq is to free Tariq Aziz, the Arab Christian who was Saddam's foreign minister, and allow him to reconstitute a legalized Baath Party and be it's representative in negotiations. This would end the insurgency in western Iraq and give them incentive to dispose of the Al-Quedistas in Anbar who have become the insurgents allies of convenience. To not do so means Al Queda will become stronger, not weaker, as time goes on.

The next step would then be to partition this fucked up place.
How would the Shiites feel about a reactivated Baathist party with Saddam's former cabinet member at it's head?

B
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post #30 of 55 (permalink) Old 12-11-2006, 06:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Botnst
How would the Shiites feel about a reactivated Baathist party with Saddam's former cabinet member at it's head?

B
Why don't you make that a rhetorical question?

Last edited by cascade; 12-11-2006 at 06:11 AM.
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