Ahmadinejad Issues Warning to European Allies on Sanctions - Page 3 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #21 of 70 (permalink) Old 12-05-2006, 06:40 PM
DP
Moderator
 
DP's Avatar
 
Date registered: Aug 2002
Vehicle: 190E, 400E, SLK350
Location: Chesapeak Bay
Posts: 64,125
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Quoted: 991 Post(s)
Lifetime Premium Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by FeelTheLove
You meant Idaho, didn't you?
LOL
DP is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #22 of 70 (permalink) Old 12-05-2006, 06:57 PM
BenzWorld Elite
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: 95 E300
Location: Inside my head
Posts: 36,850
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 392 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by FeelTheLove
You meant Idaho, didn't you?
True, that.
Botnst is offline  
post #23 of 70 (permalink) Old 12-06-2006, 10:34 AM
BenzWorld Elite
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: 95 E300
Location: Inside my head
Posts: 36,850
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 392 Post(s)
Which One God?
Comparing the Muslim and Christian conceptions of God.

By Bat Yeor


With the passing of time, hidden challenges, which for a long time had been growing unnoticed and unaddressed, can suddenly emerge into the full-blown light of current events with a force which seems quite overwhelming. Today the Western world, or Judeo-Christian civilization, shaken by jihadist terror, is being rudely awakened to theological realities blurred for decades. From clashes of civilizations to the jihad that is declaring to the planet its genocidal intentions, rational discourse concerning faith is becoming increasingly fraught.

It is within this tumult and confusion that Mark Durie, an Anglican minister, has written Revelation? Do We Worship the Same God?, in which he raises a couple of fundamental questions: Who is God? Is God Allah? Do Christians and Muslims worship the same God?

To answer these questions, he analyzes Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and God in Christianity and Islam. The reader is given a concise representation of Muslim and Christian arguments. Such an endeavor needs both solid scholarship and theological training. Mark Durie possesses both, being a theologian and a graduate in the language and culture of the Acehnese, a Muslim people from the north of Sumatra in Indonesia. In addition, the subjects he addresses, in the current context, request much intellectual integrity and courage.

But how to know the identity of “God” in the Koran and in the Bible? The author stresses that this profound and deep question requires engaging with the very essence of God’s identity. With perspicacity and great objectivity, Durie delineates the diverse aspects of his investigations, but he warns that his book should be seen only as guidance, and not the last word.

Durie’s questioning grows from the Koran’s statement that Jesus is a Muslim prophet, named Isa — a prophet whose birth, life, teaching, and death are found to be totally at odds with the testimony of the Gospels and with Biblical theology. The Koran — which for Muslims is the literal word of Allah that cannot be doubted — affirms that Muhammad’s prophetic message is exactly the same as that expressed by the Torah and the Gospels. Since there are many contradictions between the Koran and the Bible, Muslim orthodoxy considers the scriptures of Judaism and Christianity as falsifications of the primal and unique Islamic revelation. It is this accusation that provided the doctrinal justification for the discriminatory legal status of Jews and Christians living under Islam.

In the first section, the author provides information about and reflections upon the Muslim Jesus (Isa). He stresses as fundamental the Koran’s teaching that Islam is the first, primordial religion, preceding Judaism and Christianity, which are dismissed as invalid traditions, being falsified versions of Islam. Because Christianity and Judaism are thought to be a corruption of the pure message of Islam, anything true in these religions comes from their Islamic roots. Consequently, to obey their true religion, Jews and Christians should “revert” to Islam and accept the prophethood of Muhammad.

This implies, writes Durie, that anyone who opposes Muhammad is not a true Christian, nor a true Jew. Seen in this light, the Koranic verses sympathetic to Jews and Christians refer to those who will see the light and find it to be Islam. If Islam recognizes only itself in Judaism and Christianity, one can wonder whether this replacement theology is not the negation of the very principle of recognition of other religions.

Many Christians profess that Christianity is closer to Islam than to Judaism, because of a common reverence of Jesus/Isa and his mother Mary. They will be astonished to learn from Durie that according to hadiths — acts and sayings attributed to Muhammad, and endowed with theological and legislative authority — Isa, the Muslim Jesus, will be the ultimate destroyer of Christianity.

Durie examines the characters of Jesus and Isa, separated by six centuries; he compares their name and biographies and explains the differing understandings of the prophecy in the Bible and the Koran. While Christianity accepts Jewish Scriptures as the foundation of their belief and practice, and as an integral part of Christian ministry, read in churches around the world, Muslims disregard the Bible. They claim that it is Islam that is the common heritage of Jews, Christians, and Muslims, and that Jews and Christians should work to recover this heritage. Durie comments that, in this process, the Islamization of Jesus and the Hebrew patriarchs and prophets destroys both Christianity and Judaism.

The author analyses with great clarity and depth the fundamental principles of the two religions and, in a powerful chapter that raises essential questions, he discusses the concept of “Abrahamic Faith” that has become so fashionable today as a framework for dialogue. This definition, he points out, originates from the Koranic statement that Abraham was a Muslim prophet and from Islam’s core doctrine that Islam was the one revelation given to humanity by Allah through the Biblical figures and through Jesus. For Durie, the many “Abrahamic Faith” conferences throughout the world point to the Islamization of Christian understandings of interfaith dialogue. How should Christians respond to this claim which is a fundamental point of Muslim doctrine? Durie develops several arguments based on a rational analysis of history and the texts.

In his conclusion, Durie writes that profound contrasts exist in Islam and Christianity in their understanding of the identity of God. These have far-reaching implications, affecting attitudes, ethics, and politics. The clarification of misunderstandings and false assumptions, masterly exposed by Durie, is a condition to open the way for more constructive dialogue.

Durie’s book could not have been more timely. He offers a well-balanced analysis, acknowledging the important similarities of the two faiths, without ever misrepresenting the real disagreements or ignoring the hard issues. In this time of globalization, when crucial challenges are emerging for the West’s post-Christian societies, Durie’s reflections provide essential and fundamental guidance that will enable Christians to engage in a dialogue based on truth.

This is all the more urgent now that the cultural jihad in the West is preventing the free expression of thought and belief, and is subverting the whole ethical foundation of Judeo-Christianity.

— Bat Yeor is the author of studies on the conditions of Jews and Christians in the context of the jihad ideology and the sharia law. Recent books include: Islam and Dhimmitude: Where Civilizations Collide and Eurabia: The Euro-Arab Axis, both at Fairleigh Dickinson University Press.
Botnst is offline  
post #24 of 70 (permalink) Old 12-06-2006, 10:47 AM Thread Starter
~BANNED~
 
Jakarta Expat's Avatar
 
Date registered: Aug 2006
Vehicle: PM me to Join the Expat Muslims for Obama Club........
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
Posts: 17,697
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
(Thread Starter)
Bot, does it really matter? Anyone with a religion prays to a God, in my mind they are all the same God we all just pray in our own different ways.
Jakarta Expat is offline  
post #25 of 70 (permalink) Old 12-06-2006, 11:19 AM
BenzWorld Elite
 
FeelTheLove's Avatar
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: 83 Astral Silver 280 SL
Location: Planet Houston
Posts: 28,829
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
I finf it illogical that we argue over whether one group's imaginery being is the same as the other's imaginery being.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
FeelTheLove is offline  
post #26 of 70 (permalink) Old 12-06-2006, 11:30 AM Thread Starter
~BANNED~
 
Jakarta Expat's Avatar
 
Date registered: Aug 2006
Vehicle: PM me to Join the Expat Muslims for Obama Club........
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
Posts: 17,697
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
(Thread Starter)
Quote:
Originally Posted by FeelTheLove
I finf it illogical that we argue over whether one group's imaginery being is the same as the other's imaginery being.
So FTL you are an athiest? You have no false God?
Jakarta Expat is offline  
post #27 of 70 (permalink) Old 12-06-2006, 11:32 AM
CH4S Artist
 
Teutone's Avatar
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: 1985 500SEC, 1991 190E 2.6.
Location: Los Angeles / Hannover Germany
Posts: 33,584
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Quoted: 960 Post(s)
Lifetime Premium Member
Ahmadinejad and the Doomsday clock
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	FiveMinutes_COVER 5 min to midnight.gif
Views:	33
Size:	112.0 KB
ID:	107627  
Teutone is offline  
post #28 of 70 (permalink) Old 12-06-2006, 01:02 PM
BenzWorld Elite
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: 95 E300
Location: Inside my head
Posts: 36,850
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 392 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakarta Expat
Bot, does it really matter? Anyone with a religion prays to a God, in my mind they are all the same God we all just pray in our own different ways.
It depends on whether one believes it is important to understand differences among people.

Bot
Botnst is offline  
post #29 of 70 (permalink) Old 12-06-2006, 01:24 PM
jjl
BenzWorld Extremist
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: 280SE 280CE 560SEL
Posts: 978
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
For an agnostic or atheist, the 'Abrahamic faith' schtick seems reasonable, or reasonably irelevant like all religiuos delusions. However, living in a world where billions believe supernatural powers are as real as gravity, understanding what they believe becomes imperative irrespective of how crazy you find it. Atheists tend to be lazy in this respect, and not a little smug and superior with it. As Bat Ye'or points out, there is a gulf between the utterly transcendent, remote and unknowable Allah and the Christian NT God. Muslims fear Allah, and self-describe as 'slaves of Allah'. This is not a common approach amongst Christians. And before your knee-jerk regarding the OT hits me, read the Koran, ahadith and Sirat Rasool Allah, contrast and compare. And then start on the jurisprudence. Bat Ye'or's Decline of Eastern Christianity under Islam should be required reading for West Point graduates, but zero chance of that in the current PC nightmare. PC costs lives.
jjl is offline  
post #30 of 70 (permalink) Old 12-06-2006, 04:16 PM
BenzWorld Elite
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: 2014 E250 Bluetec 4-Matic, 1983 240D 4-Speed
Location: USA
Posts: 9,257
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Quoted: 256 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjl
For an agnostic or atheist, the 'Abrahamic faith' schtick seems reasonable, or reasonably irelevant like all religiuos delusions. However, living in a world where billions believe supernatural powers are as real as gravity, understanding what they believe becomes imperative irrespective of how crazy you find it. Atheists tend to be lazy in this respect, and not a little smug and superior with it. As Bat Ye'or points out, there is a gulf between the utterly transcendent, remote and unknowable Allah and the Christian NT God. Muslims fear Allah, and self-describe as 'slaves of Allah'. This is not a common approach amongst Christians. And before your knee-jerk regarding the OT hits me, read the Koran, ahadith and Sirat Rasool Allah, contrast and compare. And then start on the jurisprudence. Bat Ye'or's Decline of Eastern Christianity under Islam should be required reading for West Point graduates, but zero chance of that in the current PC nightmare. PC costs lives.
Imagine studying the cultures we share the earth with, trying to understand them and get along with them, and, if that doesn't work being in a position to confront them from a position of knowledge. Instead of calling them out to a draw at high noon and thinking you'll win by being the fastest draw or having the bigger gun.

The issue, as you have noted, is laziness. Not restricted to Athiests, mind you, as our religious zealots are often less inclined to consider competition worth the effort to study - circling the wagons and trying to isolate the outsiders more typical than genuine attempts to understand. Just look at our present executive branch. Any atheists there? Anyone truly familiar with Islam? If there is, they are not in the trusted inner circle. Who is trying to figure out Ahmadinejad? Why did we treat his 18 page letter to Bush with such disdain, instead of an opportunity to try to understand him? Why was it instantly met with utter rejection with grounds like "it doesn't say he is willing to shut down his nuclear fuel enrichment program" and just leave it at that? Laziness and general insincerity and insensitivity.

Jim
JimSmith is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

  Mercedes-Benz Forum > General Mercedes-Benz Forums > Off-Topic

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Mercedes-Benz Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











  • Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
     
    Thread Tools
    Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
    Email this Page Email this Page
    Display Modes
    Linear Mode Linear Mode



    Similar Threads
    Topic Author Forum Replies Last Post
    Ahmadinejad Predicts Collapse of Israel, U.S., U.K. Jakarta Expat Off-Topic 12 11-28-2006 05:34 AM
    Iran Sanctions Could Drive Oil Past $100 firstmb Off-Topic 12 01-25-2006 11:16 AM
    Will the United States and her Allies invade Iran ? Saigon76nyc Off-Topic 16 12-08-2005 05:30 AM
    Two U.S. Allies Leaving Iraq, More May Go Demon_possessed Off-Topic 4 12-02-2005 10:32 AM
    Braking/suspension issues? Electical issues in my 2001 C-240 wilhasl W203 C-Class 4 09-15-2005 06:11 PM

    Posting Rules  
    You may post new threads
    You may post replies
    You may not post attachments
    You may not edit your posts

    BB code is On
    Smilies are On
    [IMG] code is On
    HTML code is Off
    Trackbacks are On
    Pingbacks are On
    Refbacks are On

     

    Title goes here

    close
    video goes here
    description goes here. Read Full Story
    For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome