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post #41 of 46 (permalink) Old 11-27-2006, 09:51 PM
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While the logical existence of the ACLU is clear, with great victories for our country in civil rights several years ago, what they fight for in our present time is ridiculous. They fight against a cross in public, yet fight for funeral protesters. Amazing.

Well, we can't seem to get you to see that is not what they are fighting for. The government has no right to erect huge crosses on public property, and they have no right to regulate what I can and cannot say at any public event. If you print a public notice of a funeral, and use the public roadways for your procession and motorcade, well, that does not give you ownership of the sidewalks and right of way. People have a right to use these facilities to protest - that is established law for centuries in this country.

In both these cases, constitutional principles are being litigated, the situations themselves only cause it to happen. The real question to ask is why the rightwing in this country wants that to stop. Why do they not want to see the Bill of Rights defended, especially in a fair trial? Why do they want this stopped?

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address

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post #42 of 46 (permalink) Old 11-27-2006, 10:31 PM
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post #43 of 46 (permalink) Old 11-28-2006, 05:55 AM
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Good point earlier regarding the ACLU only suing the government. Allow me to rephrase. While certain groups/organizations are not involved directly, there is no question they are affected indirectly by court rulings.

While your argument is clear, and to the point, I still think your view is wrong. You say the gov. has "no right" in these examples. However, they do have the right to regulate or “govern.” Government has set laws enforcing harmful activity near schools, why not for funerals?

I know, in your view, the ACLU doesn't pick sides, but rather fights to limit the gov's stranglehold in power. It's a bit strange how they go after the Christian right, and similar groups, on nearly all issues the ACLU supports?

When has the ACLU sided with the Christian right? Have they ever? You see the argument as giving equal rights to all, while I see this as taking rights away from one group, and giving another group even more rights.
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post #44 of 46 (permalink) Old 11-28-2006, 06:28 AM
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IMO there is no question that the ACLU had since its creation and still maintains a particular political view that I find abbhorrent. However, their methods and aims of their 1st Amendment lawsuits are often the same as my own. I don't think that is especially unusual or noteworthy. To me it is an example of a pluralistic society in which reasonable people can disagree but still "hold certain truths to be self-evident." It's a good thing and as a society, we are stronger for that tolerance.

The Christian groups have deep pockets and within the past dozen years or so have become increasingly litigious, having learned that lesson from the ACLU. I'm willing to bet that there are people who think that is a horrible development.

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post #45 of 46 (permalink) Old 11-28-2006, 10:25 AM
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I have no problem with anyone litigating anything, deep pockets or otherwise. As I repeatedly have said, the ACLU decides nothing, and neither do the Christians - the courts do, and they are constrained by the Constitution. Like I said, my big question is why there is a big push on the far right to destroy the ACLU? Aren't they really saying is what they are really afraid of are the courts?

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #46 of 46 (permalink) Old 11-28-2006, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by FeelTheLove
I have no problem with anyone litigating anything, deep pockets or otherwise. As I repeatedly have said, the ACLU decides nothing, and neither do the Christians - the courts do, and they are constrained by the Constitution. Like I said, my big question is why there is a big push on the far right to destroy the ACLU? Aren't they really saying is what they are really afraid of are the courts?
As has been demonstrated here often over the years, people confuse the ACLU with a quasi-lawmaking body. Couple that with it's obvious (and proudly) leftward tilt and its very successful record in winning cases, it is a natural target for the rightie-tighties. They can't hurt the ACLU, they use it like many lefties use the NRA -- as a fundraising bugbear. It works, too.

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