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post #131 of 209 (permalink) Old 11-26-2006, 05:32 PM
Boring Cars...meh!
 
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I'm thankful for Walmart here in Alaska.I can buy a product for let's say $1.00 at Walmart or go to the bloodsucker Fred Meyer's and spend $1.50 for the same product. The options here are very limited on who to buy from,especially in regards to food which is very spendy compared to the lower 48.

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post #132 of 209 (permalink) Old 11-26-2006, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by DaveN007
Political tags are too emotionally charged to evaluate objectively.

Might as well just call those you disagree with "fuck-faces" as many around here do. It cuts right to the chase.

One is either a "thoughful commentator" or a "fuck-face".

The more insightful I am in my posts, the more of a "stooge" I become.

But enough about me, how do you like my shoes?

The root of the word "facism" is the Roman symbol for "the law and authority". It is a bundle of stick tied together with an axe head in the middle.

The symbolism: Individually we are weak, but together we are strong.

My "conservative identity" is rooted in the power of the individual. Not the group. Individual effort driven by individual incentive. Economies and markets driven by individual demands.

It does not take a "village". A village is what you get when you add up all of the selfish actions of individuals.

It "gets" a village. (My phrase...just thought of it.)

Where my conservative beliefs intersect with facism, I don't see.

Sincerely,

Fuckface
I think the problem is in the use of the word Conservative [I can see trouble brewing]. The NeoCon [NewConfused] movement of the past 25 years is a strange tangent to the Conservative Movement. Much of the anger and angst that is focused against the NeoCons is based on philosophies that, in truth, are not really Conservative. Now, J would stomp up and down and disagree but the current Administration lacks many of the criteria that define Conservative AND in fact, he, and the NeoCons incorporates many of the “it takes a village” axioms to heart and propagate them. As examples, we nation build, we “push” our agenda to the world. We built debt for all of us to pay, we pushed an “us vs. them nationalism. We define the “village”.

While the Conservative that you defined is an individual. The NeoCon is very much a Fascist by common definition. The NeoCon Movement took over the Conservative Movement and changed is so much that it became much of what it fought. Talk about IRONY.

So the question becomes, who here is a NeoCon, who is a Conservative. Lists taken from Wikipedia

A Conservative:
Conservative mores
Fiscal Conservatism
Economic Liberalism
Small Government
Balanced Budget
No Debt
No Intrusive Foreign Policy

A NeoCon:
Conservative Mores
Fiscal Liberalism
Economic Liberalism
Big Government
*original theses on Neoconservative movement did not mention Foreign policy.

So how do NeoCons [NewConfused] compare with Fascists, here is the definition from the guy that wrote the book on Fascists. See how many match up.

Fascism is a set of ideologies and practices that seeks to place the nation, defined in exclusive biological, cultural, and/or historical terms, above all other sources of loyalty, and to create a mobilized national community. Fascist hostility to socialism and feminism, for they are seen as prioritizing class or gender rather than nation. This is why fascism is a movement of the extreme right. Fascism is also a movement of the radical right because the defeat of socialism and feminism and the creation of the mobilized nation are held to depend upon the advent to power of a new elite acting in the name of the people, headed by a charismatic leader, and embodied in a mass, militarized party. Fascists are pushed towards conservatism by common hatred of socialism and feminism, but are prepared to override conservative interests - family, property, religious, the universities, the civil service - where the interests of the nation are considered to require it. Fascist radicalism also derives from a desire to assuage discontent by accepting specific demands of the labour and women's movements, so long as these demands accord with the national priority. Fascists seek to ensure the harmonization of workers' and women's interests with those of the nation by mobilizing them within special sections of the party and/or within a corporate system. Access to these organizations and to the benefits they confer upon members depends on the individual's national, political, and/or racial characteristics. All aspects of fascist policy are suffused with ultranationalism. Kevin Passmore- Fascism: A Very Short Introduction Cardiff University.

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post #133 of 209 (permalink) Old 11-26-2006, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by DaveN007
I thought the progressive/ neocon thing was kind of clever.

The real question is this: How do we determine the value of labor? If I go in my back yard and hit the same rock with a stick all day I will be tired. I worked all day. But no one is willing to pay to have me hit a rock with a stick. (No. I am not a pro athelete.)

One problem with a living wage:

Start paying $30 an hour to fast food workers and what will be the first thing that will happen? The people you want to help will be out fo a job. Why? Because people who are better qualified will enetr the market. College students will jump into the market and compete with the less skilled and the less skilled will lose their jobs.

That is what happened when the TSA took over airline security. Wages went way up, and a lot of new people applied for jobs. The previous employees couldn't compete.

A fast food chain entered into an agreement with a University a few years ago to run a store on campus. The school demanded a wage floor to "help the community" it was nearly double the prevailing wage in the area. Guess who got all of the jobs? Students.

Make the living wage $100 an hour and I will be competing for a fast food job.
Obviously if you use $30 an hour to pay fast food, there are several problems. The idea of the Living wage is to set a base rate for an area. For an example, let's use Lexington.

For a single adult the LW is $6.80 per hour. For a single adult with 1 child, LW goes to $12.90. It goes up from there depending on number of children and adults in the house [there may be older adults also]. A city or state can make a Living Wage any RATE it wants. Using the criteria of this database, a MINIMUM would be $6.80 which would be a bump up from $5.15MW. A reasonable community would find it fair to make the LW $12.90 to accommodate the Adult/child which is much more common than not.

The results of the LW base on the community would have both positive and negative effects. Negative effects would include manufacturing that was paying minimum wage would have an increase in costs. Small businesses [like mine] would have extra expenses as I would have to raise pay/benefits to keep or find employees. Positives would be that EVERY pay scale would rise a % in the area which would bump all wages, adding to the local tax base and to buying power [Keynesian demand-side economics].

There would be poaching of some jobs by our 20,000 student UK population in fast food and mall shops but those jobs tend to be populated by students anyway. Most living wage recommendations [not confused with minimum wage laws] have exemptions for students at any rate.

McBear,
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post #134 of 209 (permalink) Old 11-26-2006, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Jayhawk
God bear! You do tend to go overboard... The Winston Churchill quote you mistakenly claim I have misquoted is this: "Any man who is under 30, and is not a liberal, has not heart; and any man who is over 30, and is not a conservative, has no brains." And the documentation can be found here: http://www.quotedb.com/quotes/1358

I await your appoligy... But won't hold my breath.
"Conservative by the time you're 35"
"If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain." There is no record of anyone hearing Churchill say this. Paul Addison of Edinburgh University makes this comment: "Surely Churchill can't have used the words attributed to him. He'd been a Conservative at 15 and a Liberal at 35! And would he have talked so disrespectfully of Clemmie, who is generally thought to have been a lifelong Liberal?"
http://www.winstonchurchill.org/i4a/...cfm?pageid=112

Try the source next time.

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post #135 of 209 (permalink) Old 11-26-2006, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by mcbear
A reasonable community would find it fair to make the LW $12.90 to accommodate the Adult/child which is much more common than not.
Unless of course, you believe in capitalism. You LW schtick is all well and good, but there is no reasonable correlation to minimum wage. Your decisions regarding lifestyle, family, etc. should be based upon your individual ability to provide, not the other way around. The only reason I support any type of minimum wage has to do with child labor. Take children out of the equation, and the whole minimum wage concept should be abandoned altogether, in favor of market value. If you are an adult living without physical/mental handicaps in this country and are earning minimum wage, you are either taking steps to better yourself or you are a failure.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #136 of 209 (permalink) Old 11-26-2006, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Jayhawk
You are one very bitter old man, my friend...
Not being a cannibal I have no frame of reference

McBear,
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post #137 of 209 (permalink) Old 11-26-2006, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by deathrattle
To back up my suspicion regarding the veracity of that quote, from Wiki:

"According to the Falsely Attributed Quotations page at the Churchill Centre, "there is no record of anyone hearing Churchill say this." Paul Addison of Edinburgh University is quoted as stating: "Surely Churchill can't have used the words attributed to him. He'd been a Conservative at 15 and a Liberal at 35! And would he have talked so disrespectfully of Clemmie, who is generally thought to have been a lifelong Liberal?"
Also variously attributed to George Bernard Shaw and Benjamin Disraeli and Otto von Bismarck"

You must remember we have here a Conservative party and a Liberal party, which is subtly different to being liberal or conservative in the broad sense.
Sorry DR, I did not see this when I posted nearly the same. By the way I liked the boots earlier. Now I know what Jack Boots are. :-)

McBear,
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post #138 of 209 (permalink) Old 11-26-2006, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by GermanStar
Unless of course, you believe in capitalism. You LW schtick is all well and good, but there is no reasonable correlation to minimum wage. Your decisions regarding lifestyle, family, etc. should be based upon your individual ability to provide, not the other way around. The only reason I support any type of minimum wage has to do with child labor. Take children out of the equation, and the whole minimum wage concept should be abandoned altogether, in favor of market value. If you are an adult living without physical/mental handicaps in this country and are earning minimum wage, you are either taking steps to better yourself or you are a failure.
So, some people are failures. That does not mean they should not be able to live. That does not mean they should not be able to afford a roof over their head. Some people have screwed up badly. They are at the lower left end of the Bell Curve. That is where they are going to stay for whatever reason. But if they have enough together to show up for work, whatever that work is [mucking stalls, flipping fries, recycling oil, mending fences, digging ditches] they should get enough money to live. We as a society should at least be that Fn FAIR.

McBear,
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post #139 of 209 (permalink) Old 11-26-2006, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by mcbear
So, some people are failures. That does not mean they should not be able to live. That does not mean they should not be able to afford a roof over their head. Some people have screwed up badly. They are at the lower left end of the Bell Curve. That is where they are going to stay for whatever reason. But if they have enough together to show up for work, whatever that work is [mucking stalls, flipping fries, recycling oil, mending fences, digging ditches] they should get enough money to live. We as a society should at least be that Fn FAIR.
Market driven capitalism would require that they receive enough money to live, else they will die, and there will be no one to do the job, right? That doesn't mean they have some entitlement to enough wage to feed and house a family of four (or even two).

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #140 of 209 (permalink) Old 11-26-2006, 06:49 PM
Boring Cars...meh!
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GermanStar
Market driven capitalism would require that they receive enough money to live, else they will die, and there will be no one to do the job, right? That doesn't mean they have some entitlement to enough wage to feed and house a family of four (or even two).
Oh no,you've become a Republican How many of those parts you sell have "Made in USA" on them?

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