Iraq: Civil War? WayTooEarlyToTell? - Page 2 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #11 of 318 (permalink) Old 11-23-2006, 11:21 PM
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Saddam would still have been the first choice. It would take a formidable bastard of proven resolve to clean up G.W.'s mess. Tariq Aziz is mostly seen as a former mouth piece. Can he be his own man? Too bad US (and other) politicians cannot be held responsible and actually be sued for gross incompetence. Also, it should be made mandatory for politicians to wear their sponsor logos, sized according to the amounts received, a la Indy/NASCAR/ racing suits.
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post #12 of 318 (permalink) Old 11-24-2006, 07:00 AM
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So let me ask the question that everybody seems to be afraid to ask......
What difference does it make if they all kill each other off? Take a worst case scenario, lets say all the dumb ass Sunni's kill all the Shiite, and the Kurds kill off what's left of the Sunni's when they're done with their war. So what?
Do any of you actually believe that things would be any different if Saddam would have died a natural death? Do you honestly think that his sons Twiddle Dee and Twiddle Dumb could have held that mess together? Hell, they would have been fighting each other for control and the sh*t would have hit the fan anyway.
You have a bunch of religious fanatics fighting for supremacy of a religion that can't get it's own stuff together. They are the leaders of religion that can't get it straight how to worship their God in peace, and they want to run the country.
As far as I'm concerned, let them fight, and kill each other off now. Better now then later, when they might get their hands on something that can kill those outside their stupid sphere of influence. If we're lucky maybe they will drag Syria and Iran into it and they will nuke themselves out of existence.
OK, so millions may die, just how will that effect you or me? Maybe things will calm down for a while, it may seem callous to you but the fact remains that they haven't done much for the world in a positive way for a very long time have they? The radioactive fallout should knock a few off in Afghanistan, India, and Pakistan, They have more then they can feed and take care of anyway, and maybe the telephone sales calls we get at supper time will slow down some to boot....
I see it as a win - win situation.

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post #13 of 318 (permalink) Old 11-24-2006, 07:11 AM Thread Starter
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Perhaps you weren't issued a moral compass. Your/my money bought and paid for this elective abomination. That's like excusing murder, because the victim was going to die anyway...eventually.
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post #14 of 318 (permalink) Old 11-24-2006, 07:27 AM
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Aside for the wonderful rhetorical flourishes, that's an interesting question.

If the violence was targeted at combatants rather than generalized populations, I think it would be a positive development.

Unfortunately for everybody in that country, the perps are after buckets of blood. Clearly, both sides in this sectarian butchery are using mass murder in an attempt to intimidate the other.

The origin of this internicene fratricide is almost as ancient as Islam. It was intensified by the recently deposed despot's decades of oppression at the expense of the majority and to the benefit of the minority. In this it shares some superficial commonality with the Irish conflict, which also has it's origin in history, exacerbated by religious doctrines and preferential treatment of a minority at the expense o fthe majority.

Using Ireland as a surrogate, would anybody argue that either side in that conflict is opposed to liberty and democracy and rule of law?

What does the purple finger demonstrate about the Iraqi desire for those same attributes of a progressive culture?

B
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post #15 of 318 (permalink) Old 11-24-2006, 07:48 AM Thread Starter
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The bulk of the combatants are from the general public...the Iraqi public. This is not and never was a "problem" requiring US intervention/meddling. It's not our job to forcibly re-decorate other nations to suit our peculiar self image and taste. If they want to go with pink flamingos and faux marble statuary, then so be it.
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post #16 of 318 (permalink) Old 11-24-2006, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce R.
So let me ask the question that everybody seems to be afraid to ask......
What difference does it make if they all kill each other off? Take a worst case scenario, lets say all the dumb ass Sunni's kill all the Shiite, and the Kurds kill off what's left of the Sunni's when they're done with their war. So what?
Do any of you actually believe that things would be any different if Saddam would have died a natural death? Do you honestly think that his sons Twiddle Dee and Twiddle Dumb could have held that mess together? Hell, they would have been fighting each other for control and the sh*t would have hit the fan anyway.
You have a bunch of religious fanatics fighting for supremacy of a religion that can't get it's own stuff together. They are the leaders of religion that can't get it straight how to worship their God in peace, and they want to run the country.
As far as I'm concerned, let them fight, and kill each other off now. Better now then later, when they might get their hands on something that can kill those outside their stupid sphere of influence. If we're lucky maybe they will drag Syria and Iran into it and they will nuke themselves out of existence.
OK, so millions may die, just how will that effect you or me? Maybe things will calm down for a while, it may seem callous to you but the fact remains that they haven't done much for the world in a positive way for a very long time have they? The radioactive fallout should knock a few off in Afghanistan, India, and Pakistan, They have more then they can feed and take care of anyway, and maybe the telephone sales calls we get at supper time will slow down some to boot....
I see it as a win - win situation.
You are insane.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #17 of 318 (permalink) Old 11-24-2006, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce R.
So let me ask the question that everybody seems to be afraid to ask......
What difference does it make if they all kill each other off? Take a worst case scenario, lets say all the dumb ass Sunni's kill all the Shiite, and the Kurds kill off what's left of the Sunni's when they're done with their war. So what?
Do any of you actually believe that things would be any different if Saddam would have died a natural death? Do you honestly think that his sons Twiddle Dee and Twiddle Dumb could have held that mess together? Hell, they would have been fighting each other for control and the sh*t would have hit the fan anyway.
You have a bunch of religious fanatics fighting for supremacy of a religion that can't get it's own stuff together. They are the leaders of religion that can't get it straight how to worship their God in peace, and they want to run the country.
As far as I'm concerned, let them fight, and kill each other off now. Better now then later, when they might get their hands on something that can kill those outside their stupid sphere of influence. If we're lucky maybe they will drag Syria and Iran into it and they will nuke themselves out of existence.
OK, so millions may die, just how will that effect you or me? Maybe things will calm down for a while, it may seem callous to you but the fact remains that they haven't done much for the world in a positive way for a very long time have they? The radioactive fallout should knock a few off in Afghanistan, India, and Pakistan, They have more then they can feed and take care of anyway, and maybe the telephone sales calls we get at supper time will slow down some to boot....
I see it as a win - win situation.
From the way you structured your first question it appears that you have no concept of consequence. No matter how these different groups hate and are willing to kill each other if the latter happens WE will be blamed as the ultimate facilitator.
Your second paragraph just makes the ultimate point that if there should have been a civil war then it should have been their undoing, hence it should have been their problem exclusively for history to put blame on.
I hardly call the infighting between Kurds, Shiites and Sunnis exclusively a religious affair. Yes typically the Shiites are a little more fanatic because of the structure and the way that sect carries out its worship cycle. Historically the Sunnis are more tolerant, much more flexible and prone to secularism. The Kurd movement is not religious but rather racial and nationalistic. So Bruce, get your facts together before you bundle everything a la Glenn Beck or Rush Limbaugh.
If they ever manage to find a way for mass murder like you are wishing believe me they will quickly wise up after a few causalities then turn it on Israel to clean themselves from sin. What you are advocating will just spawn the worse of humanity and Israel will be the ultimate outlet. I don’t think it’s a good idea, what do you think?
If millions were to die see my first paragraph above. However I am not surprised that you don’t see value in Pakistani, Indian and others’ lives. You may be joking but I have a feeling that deep down you want to close your eyes then when you open them you want them all gone from your sight so you can enjoy lala land, right?
Is what I am saying a liberal thing or reason? You tell me!

Last edited by DP; 11-24-2006 at 08:32 AM.
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post #18 of 318 (permalink) Old 11-24-2006, 08:37 AM
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You are insane.
Kinda makes Jeffrey Dahmer look like a choir boy...

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post #19 of 318 (permalink) Old 11-24-2006, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Botnst
Aside for the wonderful rhetorical flourishes, that's an interesting question.

If the violence was targeted at combatants rather than generalized populations, I think it would be a positive development.

Unfortunately for everybody in that country, the perps are after buckets of blood. Clearly, both sides in this sectarian butchery are using mass murder in an attempt to intimidate the other.

The origin of this internicene fratricide is almost as ancient as Islam. It was intensified by the recently deposed despot's decades of oppression at the expense of the majority and to the benefit of the minority. In this it shares some superficial commonality with the Irish conflict, which also has it's origin in history, exacerbated by religious doctrines and preferential treatment of a minority at the expense o fthe majority.

Using Ireland as a surrogate, would anybody argue that either side in that conflict is opposed to liberty and democracy and rule of law?

What does the purple finger demonstrate about the Iraqi desire for those same attributes of a progressive culture?

B
Voting must have seemed like a good idea, but several commentators have noted how our management in Iraq has set the movement towards democracy back a century in the Arab world. They have now seen what "democracy" is, and want none of it.

The central problem remains that Iraq is not a country. The Shiite and Sunni sections of Iraq could possibly be united under a secular idealogy, but since our stupid assent to making Islam a part of the Iraqi constitution, we have made that an impossibility and have insured that the democratic process will be contests between religous parties, a prescription for fratricide in the Islamic world. The Kurds will simply never part of Iraq again, and are now only part of what is called "Iraq" as a convenient fiction to maintain the friendship of the United States until they can find a way out. There are only two political forces working against these currents of dissolution, and neither is in the US interest: Pan-Arab Baath socialism or an Islamic Republic. The support in Iraq for these two idealogies constitutes the majority, Western style democracy has the support of no one save the political opportunist of the Green Zone, like their South Vietnamese antecedents, men whose only really belief is getting rich sucking US teat. In fact, any analysis of Iraqi voting and who they voted for shows that they were voting for an Islamic Republic, and if the Baath Party had not been outlawed and its adherents sent to the gun, it would have done as well or better. There simply is no constituency in Iraq or in the Arab world for that matter, for the fantasy of US style democracy. Are our men suckers dying for a lie? We report, you decide.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address

Last edited by FeelTheLove; 11-24-2006 at 08:45 AM.
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post #20 of 318 (permalink) Old 11-24-2006, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FeelTheLove
Voting must have seemed like a good idea, but several commentators have noted how our management in Iraq has set the movement towards democracy back a century in the Arab world. They have now seen what "democracy" is, and want none of it.

The central problem remains that Iraq is not a country. The Shiite and Sunni sections of Iraq could possibly be united under a secular idealogy, but since our stupid assent to making Islam a part of the Iraqi constitution, we have made that an impossibility and have insured that the democratic process will be contests between religous parties, a prescription for fratricide in the Islamic world. The Kurds will simply never part of Iraq again, and are now only part of what is called "Iraq" as a convenient fiction to maintain the friendship of the United States until they can find a way out. There are only two political forces working against these currents of dissolution, and neither is in the US interest: Pan-Arab Baath socialism or an Islamic Republic. The support in Iraq for these two idealogies constitutes the majority, Western style democracy has the support of no one save the political opportunist of the Green Zone, like their South Vietnamese antecedents, men whose only really belief is getting rich sucking US teat. In fact, any analysis of Iraqi voting and who they voted for shows that they were voting for an Islamic Republic, and if the Baath Party had not been outlawed and its adherents sent to the gun, it would have done as well or better. There simply is no constituency in Iraq or in the Arab world for that matter, for the fantasy of US style democracy. Are our men suckers dying for a lie? We report, you decide.
Right on, this just proves that we were sucking Islamic cock so we can "appease" a "majority" sentiment. Well, that assessment was wrong and now we effectively handed Iraq over to AL-Qaeda.
This just proves that the idiots advising our supreme leader either have no idea how Iraqis feel or it was done on purpose to commit our troops into a mess for the sake of special interest and other obscure agendas.
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