Iraq: Civil War? WayTooEarlyToTell? - Page 19 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #181 of 318 (permalink) Old 11-27-2006, 05:38 AM
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Originally Posted by mcbear
I think the public took an interest earlier this month. That election thingie. You know, your shiny new Democratic Congressman in Louisville.

OMG, Can you believe how stupid the people are? that is a blatant piece of shit!
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post #182 of 318 (permalink) Old 11-27-2006, 05:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Professor
Oh well I guess Bruce does not want to answer my questions. You get an F, now go retake that course!
Good thing I didn't pay in advance huh !

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post #183 of 318 (permalink) Old 11-27-2006, 05:45 AM
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Originally Posted by FeelTheLove
The Green Zone was bombed recently.
After a war the length of the Second World War, our President cannot visit at all and our Secretary of State has to sneak in on "surprise visits". The reason is simple: we have simply been unable to secure Iraq with the puny force that was sent, a puny force because Bush did not wish to endanger his tax cuts for the rich by fighting a real war. Greed has always outweighed the lives of our soldiers in Iraq.
The press has already beat you to that little bit of crap. If you want to equate this to WW II you might want to consider that so far we have only about the same number of troops that we did at D-Day (one battle), and far fewer then any SINGLE theater in that war.

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post #184 of 318 (permalink) Old 11-27-2006, 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Bruce R.
The press has already beat you to that little bit of crap. If you want to equate this to WW II you might want to consider that so far we have only about the same number of troops that we did at D-Day (one battle), and far fewer then any SINGLE theater in that war.
Also, after the confrontation of organized armies ceased over 60 years ago, we still have a military presence in those countries.

Which I would like to stop, but that's a subject for another thread.
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post #185 of 318 (permalink) Old 11-27-2006, 06:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Botnst
Also, after the confrontation of organized armies ceased over 60 years ago, we still have a military presence in those countries.

Which I would like to stop, but that's a subject for another thread.
You have to wonder what they would do if we pulled out, and they actually had to think about protecting themselves. The cash flow through those bases to Germany and Japan is fairly significant as well.

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post #186 of 318 (permalink) Old 11-27-2006, 09:17 AM
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Who will they protect themselves from? The whole Europe thing is a big joyride for the military.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #187 of 318 (permalink) Old 11-27-2006, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by FeelTheLove
Who will they protect themselves from? The whole Europe thing is a big joyride for the military.
Have you ever been away from you family and friends for 18 months or two years? In your case it probably would be a joy ride, a joy ride for them....

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post #188 of 318 (permalink) Old 11-27-2006, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Bruce R.
In other words your ignorance is showing again.
Interesting answer and who is the ignorant here? Are you implying the war was originally waged by the Generals and not the politicians. Maybe a chronological history of that conflict helps to refresh your memories a bit.

12 Feb '55 - President Eisenhower's administration sends the first U.S. advisers to South Vietnam to train the South Vietnamese Army

5 Sep '56 - President Eisenhower tells a news conference that the French are "involved in a hopelessly losing war in Indochina"

8 July '59 - Two Americans are killed and one wounded during a Viet Minh attack 20 miles north of Saigon

13 May '61 - President Kennedy orders 100 "special forces" troops to S. Vietnam

11 Dec '61 - U.S. aircraft carrier "Core" arrives in Saigon with 33 helicopters and 400 air and ground crewmen assigned to operate them for S. Vietnam

22 Dec '61 - SP4 James Davis of Livingston, Tennessee killed by Viet Cong (VC) later called by President Johnson "The first American to fall in defense of our freedom in Vietnam"

15 May '62 - President Kennedy orders an immediate build-up of US troops in Thailand to a total of 5,000 due to Communist attacks in Laos and movement toward the Thailand border

1 Nov '63 - S. Vietnamese President Diem and his brother are assassinated outside of Saigon. One coup follows another and weakens the war effort

Jun '64 - Henry Cabot Lodge resigned as US ambassador to Saigon

July '64 - Announcement states that US military contingent in Vietnam would increase 5,000 more to 21,000

2 Aug '64 - US Navy destroyers "Maddox" and "C. Turner Joy" are reported attacked by North Vietnamese torpedo boats in the Gulf of Tonkin (attacks 2 Aug + 4 Aug)

4 Aug '64 - US retaliatory strike destroyed 25 N. Vietnamese boats at their bases

4 Aug '64 - Later revealed in the "Pentagon Papers": A cable from the US commander of the destroyer task force stated, "No actual visual sighting. . . . .suggest complete evaluation before any further action."

7 Aug '64 - US Congress approves Gulf of Tonkin resolution affirming "All necessary measures to repel any armed attack against the forces of the United States. . .to prevent further aggression. . . (and) assist any member or protocol state of the Southeast Asian Collective Defense Treaty (SEATO) requesting assistance. . ." US Senate voted (88-2) passed - Senator Wayne Morse (D-Oregon) and Senator Ernest Gruening (D-Alaska) voted against the resolution. US House voted (414-0) passed

Fall '64 - U.S. turns down an offer of secret peace talks with North Vietnam

7 Feb '65 - "In the early hours of February 7th, '65, the VC upped the ante when they launched a guerrilla assault against the military barracks at Pleiku where US military advisors were housed. The attack left 8 Americans dead, and President Johnson reacted as though the VC had delivered a personal insult." Johnson ordered a retaliatory air-strike against North Vietnam the next day. Operation "Rolling Thunder" began in mid-February and lasted 3 years

8 Mar '65 - "Two US Marine battalions arrived on the beach at DaNang in full battle gear. . . They were met not by enemy fire, but by curious onlookers. . . One soldier said, "The war was nowhere in sight."

16 Mar '65 - Alice Herz, an 82-year-old survivor of Nazi terror, set herself on fire in Detroit shortly after President Johnson announced major troop increases and the bombing of North Vietnam.

20 May '65 - Hanoi restates its peace proposal which "Washington" has already rejected

2 Nov '65 - Quaker Norman Morrison set himself on fire and died outside Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara’s Pentagon office, a scene McNamara witnessed

9 Nov '65 - Catholic Worker Roger LaPorte immolated himself opposite the United Nations building as an anti-war protest

'65 - The US Congress provided $2.4 Billion for the Vietnam war effort, with little dissent in the US House or Senate

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post #189 of 318 (permalink) Old 11-27-2006, 11:00 AM
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Jan '66 thru Oct '68 - US bombs dropped on N. Vietnam total over 600,000 tons

1 Mar '66 - An attempt to repeal Gulf of Tonkin resolution was defeated in the US Senate

29 Jan '66 - US begins bombing around Haiphong and Hanoi, N. Vietnam. This is considered a major escalation of the air war

March '67 - Later revealed in the "Pentagon Papers" that "Operation Pop Eye", a rain-making project, was designed to reduce traffic along the Ho Chi Minh trail in Laos

3 Sep '67 - Nguyen Van Thieu elected president of S. Vietnam

Oct '67 - Congressman Thomas P. ("Tip") O'Neill broke publicly with President Johnson and opposed continuation of the Vietnam war. O'Neill supported Senator Eugene McCarthy (D-Minn) for president in 1968

30 Jan '68 - Communists start Tet Offensive which escalates into one of the major battles of the war, including attacks on almost all of the capitals of S. Vietnam's 44 provinces

16 Mar '68 - My Lai Massacre - Quang Ngai province - In 1971, LT Calley was convicted and sentenced to "life". His sentence was later changed to 20 years "hard labor". Over 100 civilians were massacred.

31 Mar '68 - President Johnson commits the US to a non-military solution of the war when he announced he would not seek re-election, and ordered a bombing halt over 75% of N. Vietnam (north of the 20th Parallel)

31 Oct '68 - President Johnson announced he would halt all bombing of N. Vietnam on 1 Nov 68. The B-52 bombing halt was maintained until 15 Apr 72. The US bombing "sorties" were shifted to Laos 1 Nov 68 on through 1972 -- over 25,000 sorties were flown, with the most occurring in 1971

End '68 - "Draftees" accounted for 38% of all American troops in Vietnam. Over 12% of the draftees were college graduates

18 Jan '69 - Expanded peace talks open in Paris with representatives of the US, S. Vietnam, N. Vietnam, and the National Liberation Front (NLF)

20 Jan '69 - "The greatest honor history can bestow is the tittle of 'peacemaker'. . . after a period of confrontation we are entering an era of negotiation." President Richard Nixon during his Inaugural Address

5 Apr '69 - The only major anti-war demonstration in the early months of the Nixon presidency occurred April 5th and 6th

Spring '69 - During 1973 Senate hearings, it was revealed that secret bombings started a year before the 30 Apr 70 incursion into Cambodia

8 May '69 - "10-point peace plan" offered in Paris by the NLF and endorsed by Hanoi

14 May '69 - President Nixon, during a policy address on Vietnam, proposes an "8-point peace plan" that would include mutual withdrawal of all non-Vietnamese forces to designated bases over a 12-month period, after which remaining troops would be totally withdrawn from S. Vietnam

Mid-69 - President Nixon abandoned the idea of a "purely military victory", started bringing US troops home, and talked of a "Vietnamization" program to prepare the S. Vietnamese to take over the US combat role. Withdrawals announced: 8 Jun - 25,000 and 16 Sep - 35,000

3 Sep '69 - Ho Chi Minh dies

15 Oct '69 - "Vietnam Moratorium" - An estimated 1 million Americans across the US participated in anti-war demonstrations, protest rallies and peace vigils. 50 members of the US Congress also participated

3 Nov '69 - President Nixon says he plans withdrawal of all US troops on a secret timetable

19 Nov '69 - Congress gave the president the authority to institute the "draft lottery" system aimed at inducting 19-year-olds before older men. Nixon signed the bill into law 26 Nov 69. Under the new law the period of prime eligibility was reduced from 7 years to 1 year. Maximum eligibility would begin on a man's 19th birthday and end on his 20th birthday

1 Dec '69 - The first draft lottery in 27 years was held at Selective Service Headquarters in Washington, DC

2 Dec '69 - US House approved (334-55) a resolution endorsing Nixon's efforts to achieve "peace with justice", following a 2 day debate. This was the first major Vietnam policy declaration since the 1964 Gulf of Tonkin resolution

8 Dec '69 - Chief US negotiator Henry Cabot Lodge and his deputy resigned, expressing pessimism concerning the course of the negotiations

15 Dec '69 - President Nixon announced the reduction of another 50,000 troops by mid-April 1970

18 Dec '69 - Senator John Cooper (R-KY), after several attempts, succeeded in limiting US activities in Laos and Thailand when a bill including $23.2 Billion for Vietnam war activities prohibited introduction of US combat troops into Laos and Thailand

End '69 - A year of ever widening divisions in the US. The "silent majority" and "middle America" were pitted against the war protesters. Vice President Agnew called protesters "impudent snobs"

Jan '70 - "Washington Monthly Magazine" described an intelligence network of "nearly 1,000 plain clothes investigators working out of some 200 offices from coast to coast" who wrote reports on "political protests of all kinds". The domestic intelligence operation stored and disseminated information on both groups and individuals who "might cause trouble of the US Army." Senator Ervin reported in December 1970 that he was informed the surveillance included 800 Illinois citizens including Senator Adlai Stevenson, III (D-ILL), Rep. Abner Mikua (D-ILL) and US Circuit Judge Otto Kerner. Ervin said "apparently anyone who in the Army's definition was 'left of center' was a prospective candidate for political surveillance." During lengthly Senate hearings on the Army's activities, Defense Secretary Laird ordered the spying stopped.

21 Feb '70 - A presidential commission recommends the institution of an all-volunteer Army and elimination of the draft

Mar/Apr '70 - News of increased US involvement in Laos and Cambodia surfaced when 1969 Senate transcripts were made public

20 Apr '70 - President Nixon announces during a TV address, the withdrawal of another 150,000 troops over the next 12 months. This reduction would lower US troop strength to 284,000

23 Apr '70 - President Nixon calls for far-reaching draft reform. Nixon also issued an Executive Order that ended all occupational deferments and most paternity deferments, with "extreme hardship" as the only exception

30 Apr '70 - President Nixon sent US forces into Cambodia, causing widespread war protest in the streets, and plunging Congress into a session-long debate over Congressional war powers

2 May '70 - Senators McGovern, Hughes, Cranston, Goodell, and Hatfield announced they planned to introduce an "end the war" amendment which would work by suspending funds for military operations in Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia

4 May '70 - 4 Kent State college students were shot to death by Ohio National Guardsmen during an anti-war protest on the campus. This lead to widening anti-war protests

9 May '70 - A peaceful anti-war rally held at the Ellipse in Washington, DC was attended by about 80,000 people including about 10 members of Congress

31 Aug '70 - During debate over the McGovern-Hatfield Amendment in the US Senate, Senator Eagleton (D-MO) and Javits (R-NY) said that the Nixon policy of gradual de-escalation was leading to a wider war in Indochina. Senator Church said the Congress needed to keep pressure on President Nixon to hasten the withdrawal. Senators Scott (R-PA) and Thurmond (R-SC) expressed concern over the fate of US P.O.W.'s and bargaining pressure if US troops were removed

1 Sep '70 - The McGovern-Hatfield Amendment, providing for the withdrawal of all US troops by 31 Dec 71, was defeated by the Senate now and again later

1970 - War Powers - By the time Congress learned that the naval incident leading to the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution (1964) had been misrepresented and moved to repeal the resolution in 1970, President Nixon had already shifted to another legal rationale -- his constitutional powers as "Commander in Chief" -- for his Vietnam policies. In its 1969 "national commitments" resolution, the Senate made a bid to reassert a congressional voice in decisions committing the US to the defense of foreign countries. The House passed war-powers measures in 1970, 1971 and 1972.

17 Sep '70 - The VC presented an 8-point peace plan which was the first substantial initiative since Nixon's May 1969 plan. The Paris Peace Talks remained stalemated throughout 1970

7 Oct '70 - President Nixon announced a new 5-point peace plan

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post #190 of 318 (permalink) Old 11-27-2006, 11:01 AM
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13 Jan '71 - President Nixon signs a bill repealing the Gulf of Tonkin resolution

10 Feb '71 - Congressman Aiken (R-VT) recommended convening an Indochina conference to negotiate a settlement of the area's disputes

23 Feb '71 - Senate Democrats voted (38-13) to adopt a "resolution of purpose" for the 92nd Congress to end US involvement in Indochina and "bring about the withdrawal of all US forces and the release of prisoners in a time certain."

1 Mar '71 - A powerful bomb exploded at 1:32am in a restroom in the original part of the Capitol Building in Washington, DC, with responsibility claimed by the "Weather Underground". Senator McGovern attributed the bombing to "our Vietnam madness"

29 Mar '71 - LT Calley convicted for the My Lai Massacre

30 Mar '71 - It was later found out that on this date; "a confidential Army directive orders personnel to intercept and confiscate personal mail containing anti-war and other dissident material sent to soldiers in Vietnam."

7 Apr '71 - During a speech, President Nixon said that in relation to setting a firm date for troop withdrawal, that it would "serve the enemy's purpose, not our own."

1 Apr '71 - Draft Bill - A 2-year extension of the draft passed the House (239-99) in a roll-call vote. The Senate also passed the bill 24 Jun 71 following a long debate, lasting from 6 May through 24 Jun 71. 48% of manpower for the Army were draftees or "draft motivated".

18 Apr '71 - 2,300 Vietnam Veterans came to Washington, DC to participate in Dewey Canyon III, "a military incursion into the country of Congress". Led by Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW), the vets camped on the mall 1/4 mile from the Capitol, and threw away military medals and ribbons at the foot of the statue of Chief Justice John Marshall.

24 Apr '71 - 10 days of protests by a group calling themselves the "Mayday Tribe" included attempted work stoppages at several federal offices in Washington, DC

3 May '71 - 5,100 policemen backed by 10,000 federal troops resulted in an unprecedented mass arrest of approximately 7,000 persons, with another 2,700 arrested the next day. Protests ended 5 May with the arrest of another 1,200 demonstrators on the Capitol's east steps during a rally attended by some members of Congress

9 Jun '71 - The Senate adopted an amendment authorizing drug control and rehabilitation programs in the military

June '71 - Pentagon Papers published

17 June '71 - Congressman Charles Whalen, Jr (R-Ohio) co-sponsored an "end the war" bill which was rejected by the House (158-255)

24 Jun '71 - Mansfield Amendment was passed along with the draft extension bill. It was a controversial amendment by Senate Majority leader Mike Mansfield (D-Mont) setting a national policy of withdrawing troops from Indochina 9 months after the bill's enactment (wording was later softened to the "earliest practical date"). It was the first time in modern US history that Congress had urged an end to a war in which the country was actively involved

1 Jul '71 - During the peace talks, the Viet Cong proposed the return of all American and allied prisoners held in North and South Vietnam by the end of 1971 if all US troops were withdrawn within that same period. US reaction was cautious

28 Sep '71 - The 2-year draft extension was signed into law after lapsing from 30 Jun until 28 Sep. Deferments were abolished for 1971 college freshmen, although upperclassmen retained draft deferments. Also in the bill was a non-binding provision putting Congress on record as backing an early end to the Vietnam War

3 Oct '71 - South Vietnam election - President Thieu ran unopposed and was re-elected with more than 90% of the popular vote. Vice President Ky and General Duong Van Minh earlier dropped out of the race amid charges that Thieu had rigged the election

2 Nov '71 - A Senate subcommittee released a 300-page report documenting "corruption, criminality, and moral compromise" in a PX scandal in Vietnam and other overseas areas

12 Nov '71 - President Nixon announced a troop withdrawal of 45,000 more troops by 1 Feb 72, but said it was particularly important to continue air strikes on enemy infiltration routes

26-30 Dec '71 - The US carries out the heaviest air strikes on North Vietnam since 1968 in Operation Proud Deep, consisting of 1,025 sorties

Jan '72 - President Nixon announces the 7th withdrawal: 70,000 troops by 1 May 72 reducing the troop level in Vietnam to 69,000

17-28 Feb '72 - President Nixon visits the People's Republic of China

30 Mar '72 - The North Vietnamese launch a major offensive across the DMZ, the biggest since Tet 1968. In retaliation, Nixon orders the bombing of the Hanoi and Haiphong area

15 Apr '72 - Renewed US bombing of North Vietnam above the 20th parallel

26 Apr '72 - President Nixon announced the withdrawal of 20,000 more troops

27 Apr '72 - Paris Peace talks resume

8 May '72 - Nixon orders the mining of North Vietnamese harbors without first consulting Congress

Jun '72 - Nixon announced the withdrawal of 10,000 more troops by September

17 Jun '72 - Watergate break-in and attempted bugging of the Democratic Party Headquarters

Aug '72 - Nixon announced the withdrawal of 12,000 more troops

27 Oct '72 - Nixon "pocket vetoed" the Veteran's Health Care Expansion Act of 1972. The health care act would have authorized expenditure of $85 million in FY 1973 for expanding health care services for veterans and their dependents

Oct '72 - The Supreme Court was steadfast in refusing to rule on the constitutionality of American involvement in Vietnam. As late as Oct 72, the court voted 7-2 to decline to hear a case in which taxpayers challenged the use of foreign aid funds to finance American operations in Vietnam (Sarnoff vs. Schultz) Justices Douglas and Brennan disagreed with the courts' hands-off attitude since the Constitution specifically gives Congress the power to declare war, they said, and thus "impliedly bars its exercise by the executive branch."

Dec '72 - Peace talks stopped due to a change in the Communist's position. The heaviest US bombing of North Vietnam of the war followed 18-30 Dec during Operation Linebacker II which included 129 B-52 bombers striking Hanoi

8 Jan '73 - Final stage of peace talks began that would lead to the signing of a Vietnam cease fire on 27 Jan

23 Jan '73 - President Nixon announced an agreement "to end the war and bring peace with honor in Vietnam and S.E. Asia."

27 Jan '73 - Official end of the Vietnam War. Between 27 Jan and 29 Mar 73, a total of 587 military and civilian prisoners were released by the North Vietnamese, and during that same period, 23,500 US troops were withdrawn from South Vietnam

Was it not Ike started the U.S. involvement in 'Nam? And his political affliation is Republican?

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