The War in Iraq has become illogical - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #1 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-16-2006, 07:02 PM Thread Starter
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The War in Iraq has become illogical

Right now in Iraq, we have Americans dying for Iraq and for Iraqis. Since most Americans demand our leaders give some reason our boys are dying that shows they are dying for America, the Bush regime has given this rational: In order to protect the United States from terrorists, we need a democratic state to act as a "beacon" in the Middle East. Well, besides the fact that Iraq's northern neighbor, Turkey, has a nicely functioning beacon of democracy in the Middle East, and besides the fact that we have absolutely nothing to base this "beacon theory" on, besides that obvious fact, is the increasingly obvious fact that Iraqis would much rather kill each other than have a nice little democracy. So in other words, the logical underpinning of this war has collapsed. Why are Americans dying in Iraq?

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #2 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-16-2006, 07:06 PM
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It has always been illogical, as have the reasons behind it.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #3 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-16-2006, 07:29 PM
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Yes, since scrutinizing thread titles is the latest fad, I'll also call into question the use of the words "has become". The word "is" is a suitable replacement. I'm sure the crack-smoking thread police will chime in with their own malcontented interpretations.
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post #4 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-17-2006, 04:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FeelTheLove
Right now in Iraq, we have Americans dying for Iraq and for Iraqis. Since most Americans demand our leaders give some reason our boys are dying that shows they are dying for America, the Bush regime has given this rational: In order to protect the United States from terrorists, we need a democratic state to act as a "beacon" in the Middle East. Well, besides the fact that Iraq's northern neighbor, Turkey, has a nicely functioning beacon of democracy in the Middle East, and besides the fact that we have absolutely nothing to base this "beacon theory" on, besides that obvious fact, is the increasingly obvious fact that Iraqis would much rather kill each other than have a nice little democracy. So in other words, the logical underpinning of this war has collapsed. Why are Americans dying in Iraq?
And, just to clarify, Turkey isn't exactly a "Beacon of democracy" in the ME. Ask the Kurds in Diyarbakir, or anywhere you can find them in Turkey. The Turks were so nervous about the status quo there they wouldn't even allow the US troops to take the easy way into Iraq, through Turkey, when the Iraqi adventure was being planned.

True, Turkey is a lot more secular, evolved, and progressive and open to the west than many other countries in the ME, but no paragon: To this day they STILL refuse to acknowledge the enormous Armenian genocide of 1915, and while we are on the subject, don't forget the 1974 war with Greece over Cyprus. A lot of their seemingly pro west ambitions seem to have stemmed from a desire to reap the benefits of being accepted into NATO and the EU.

BTW, I enjoy your POV (even though it's pretty strident!) and wish more DEMs would speak truth to power like you do - in a way it's refreshing!!
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post #5 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-17-2006, 05:17 AM
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^^^^^

True dat. There are also signs of a move away from secularism in Turkey, even in the cosmopolitan west of the country. Mustafa Kemal Ataturk will be spinning in his grave.
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post #6 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-17-2006, 06:00 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cascade
And, just to clarify, Turkey isn't exactly a "Beacon of democracy" in the ME. Ask the Kurds in Diyarbakir, or anywhere you can find them in Turkey. The Turks were so nervous about the status quo there they wouldn't even allow the US troops to take the easy way into Iraq, through Turkey, when the Iraqi adventure was being planned.

True, Turkey is a lot more secular, evolved, and progressive and open to the west than many other countries in the ME, but no paragon: To this day they STILL refuse to acknowledge the enormous Armenian genocide of 1915, and while we are on the subject, don't forget the 1974 war with Greece over Cyprus. A lot of their seemingly pro west ambitions seem to have stemmed from a desire to reap the benefits of being accepted into NATO and the EU.

BTW, I enjoy your POV (even though it's pretty strident!) and wish more DEMs would speak truth to power like you do - in a way it's refreshing!!
Thank you. Turkey isn't perfect but any government like it has that could function in Iraq would be a godsend. But we screwed the pooch early on that one, like we did with everything else, by caving to the Shiite demand that the surpremcy of Islam must be written into their constitution. Bad mistake, as bad as disbanding the authority structures of the society. Turkey shows the only way to have something even close to democracy in an Islamic country is through strict separation of church and state. Of course, Bush doesn't want separation of church and state in America, so why would he send a bad message to his kook pals?

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #7 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-17-2006, 09:54 AM
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Anyone who read or studied Iraq would have known that the Sunni's and Shiites were fighting each other long before Saddam even came to power. Iraq was a can of worms waiting to be opened but the dumb public believed it would be a cakewalk due to the lies they were told, and the 30% or so still belive their GOD GWB. The best approcah would be to split Iraq in three parts, IMHO. All we have done is taken away power from the Sunni's and given it to the Shiites, what makes anyone think that even if we leave 2,5,10 years from now that the asses will not start killing each other over a power grab.

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post #8 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-17-2006, 10:18 AM Thread Starter
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Believe it or not, prior to March 2003 when we attacked Iraq, there were several members of this forum, posting at MercedesShop at the time, who said exactly that, and several others who refuse to admit they were wrong.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #9 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-17-2006, 11:00 AM Thread Starter
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I think the man has become mentally unbalanced. Can anyone explain what this kook is trying to say here?

Ho Chi Minh looms as Bush touts Vietnam lessons
POSTED: 12:09 p.m. EST, November 17, 2006
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HANOI, Vietnam (AP) -- President Bush, on his first visit to a country where America lost a two-decade-long fight against communism, said Friday the Vietnam War's lesson for today's Iraq conflict is that freedom takes time to trump hatred.

Embracing a former enemy that remains communist but is allowing capitalism to surge, Bush opened a four-day stay here that was fueling an already raging debate over his war policy.

Democrats who won control of Congress say last week's elections validate their call for U.S. troops to start coming home soon, while Bush argues -- as he did again Friday -- for patience with a mission he says can't be ended until Iraq can remain stable on its own.

A baby boomer who came of age during the turbulent Vietnam era and spent the war in the United States as a member of the Texas Air National Guard, Bush said he was amazed by the sights of the one-time war capital.

He said he was hopeful that the United States and Vietnam have reconciled differences after a war that ended 31 years ago when the Washington-backed regime in Saigon fell.

"My first reaction is history has a long march to it, and societies change and relationships can constantly be altered to the good," Bush said after speeding past signs of both poverty and the commerce produced by Asia's fastest-growing economy.

Vietnam lessons
The president said there was much to be learned from the Vietnam War -- the longest conflict in U.S. history -- as his administration contemplates new strategies for the war in Iraq, now in its fourth year. But his critics see parallels with Vietnam -- a determined insurgency and a death toll that has drained public support -- that spell danger for dragging out U.S. involvement in Iraq. (Watch how the Iraq war compares to Vietnam -- 3:17 )

"It's just going to take a long period of time for the ideology that is hopeful -- and that is an ideology of freedom -- to overcome an ideology of hate," Bush said after having lunch with Australian Prime Minister John Howard, one of America's strongest allies in Iraq.

"We'll succeed," Bush added, "unless we quit."

In a day of meetings with Vietnamese leaders, the Vietnam-Iraq comparisons gave way to a focus on areas of cooperation. Those include continuing military-to-military links, work on AIDS and bird flu, trade, and cooperation on information about more than 1,300 U.S. military personnel still unaccounted for from the Vietnam War.

He met in succession with Vietnamese President Nguyen Minh Triet at the bright orange presidential palace, with Prime Minister Nguyen Tan Dung next door, and with the country's most powerful leader, Communist Party chief Nong Duc Manh, at the ruling party headquarters. Each time, he and his hosts sat under a large bronze bust of Ho Chi Minh, the victorious North's revolutionary communist leader.

Nong said the president had "opened a new page in the relationship."

"For decades, you had been torn apart by war," Bush said later at a state banquet. "And today, the Vietnamese people are at peace and seeing the benefits of reform."

Clinton better received
The president's welcome by the public was much less enthusiastic than the rock-star treatment afforded President Bill Clinton when he came in 2000. Happy crowds thronged Clinton, who normalized relations with Vietnam.

But Bush encountered a country where many with long memories deeply disapprove of the U.S. invasion of Iraq -- even as they yearn for continued economic progress to stamp out still-rampant poverty.

Huynh Tuyet, 71, a North Vietnamese veteran who had his hand blown off fighting the Americans, recalled his own lesson.

"Even though the Americans were more powerful with all their massive weapons, the main factor in war is the people," he said. "The Vietnamese people were very determined. We would not give up. That's why we won."

Vietnamese officials expressed disappointment that Bush arrived without congressional approval of a new pact normalizing trade relations with Vietnam.

Congress failed to pass the bill this week as expected, leaving U.S. officials trying to explain to the Vietnamese that it would be sure to go through next month.

The visit was a delicate balancing act for Bush. Inside the sprawling Communist Party headquarters, the president gently pressed his hosts on the need for greater political and religious freedoms.

After remaining in Hanoi for a summit of 21 Pacific Rim leaders, Bush was to travel Monday to Ho Chi Minh City, the country's economic heart. (Bush's itinerary)

On the sidelines of the summit, Bush was to meet one-on-one with Russia's Vladimir Putin, China's Hu Jintao, Japan's Shinzo Abe and South Korea's Roh Moo-hyun.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #10 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-17-2006, 11:53 AM
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I am a senior citizen.



! During the Clinton Administration I had an extremely good and well paying job.



I took numerous vacations and had several vacation homes.



Since President Bush took office, I have watched my entire life change for the worse.




I lost my job.



I lost my two sons in that terrible Iraqi War.



I lost my homes.



I lost my health insurance.



As a matter of fact I lost virtually everything and became homeless.



Adding insult to injury, when the authorities found me living like an animal, instead of helping me, they arrested me.



I will do anything that Senator Kerry, Senator Clinton, and Senator Kennedy want to insure that a Democrat is back in the White House come 2008.



Bush has to go.



Sincerely,




Saddam Hussein
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