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post #1 of 26 (permalink) Old 11-14-2006, 09:25 AM Thread Starter
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US: Immigrants may be held indefinitely

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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061114/...inees_lawsuits
US: Immigrants may be held indefinitely

By MATT APUZZO, Associated Press WriterTue Nov 14, 6:39 AM ET

Immigrants arrested in the United States may be held indefinitely on suspicion of terrorism and may not challenge their imprisonment in civilian courts, the Bush administration said Monday, opening a new legal front in the fight over the rights of detainees.
In court documents filed with the 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Richmond, Va., the Justice Department said a new anti-terrorism law being used to hold detainees in Guantanamo Bay also applies to foreigners captured and held in the United States.
Ali Saleh Kahlah Al-Marri, a citizen of Qatar, was arrested in 2001 while studying in the United States. He has been labeled an "enemy combatant," a designation that, under a law signed last month, strips foreigners of the right to challenge their detention in federal courts.
That law is being used to argue the Guantanamo Bay cases, but Al-Marri represents the first detainee inside the United States to come under the new law. Aliens normally have the right to contest their imprisonment, such as when they are arrested on immigration violations or for other crimes.
"It's pretty stunning that any alien living in the United States can be denied this right," said Jonathan Hafetz, an attorney for Al-Marri. "It means any non-citizen, and there are millions of them, can be whisked off at night and be put in detention."
The new law says that enemy combatants will be tried before military commissions, not a civilian judge or jury, and establishes different rules of evidence in the cases. It also prohibits detainees from challenging their detention in civilian court.
In a separate court filing in Washington on Monday, the Justice Department defended that law as constitutional and necessary.
Government attorneys said foreign fighters arrested as part of an overseas military action have no constitutional rights and are being afforded more legal rights than ever.
In its short filing in the Al-Marri case, however, the Justice Department doesn't mention that Al-Marri is being held at a military prison in South Carolina — a fact that his attorneys say affords him the same rights as anyone else being held in the United States.
The Justice Department noted only that the new law applies to all enemy combatants "regardless of the location of the detention."
The Bush administration maintains that al-Marri is an al-Qaida sleeper agent. The Defense Department ordered a review of Al-Marri's status as an enemy combatant be conducted if, as requested, the case is thrown out of court.

I am now worried about Jakarta Expat that thinks that living in a foreign land is going to be good for him. If he is a US citizen then he is screwed because I am certain that we will be extended the same rights we are now bestowing on foreigners in our country. When his ass is going to be caned without due process there will be no one to help him just like when we will be hauling away whomever we think is undesirable for whatever reason. Who's to challange us about the reasons if there will be no due process? We are now offcially a Third World country, thank you President Bush.
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post #2 of 26 (permalink) Old 11-14-2006, 09:32 AM
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This is the result of claiming that Habeus Corpus is some right granted by The State instead of an inalienable human right as has been the view since the signing of the Magna Carta. It allows the executive branch to supercede the judicial branch. It also sets a precedent that the The State gets to decide who has this right. All human beings have this right, the right to have their case heard by someone other than those who are holding them, to judge if their incarceration is just. What if Britain now decides to follow the US in this? Bush could simply send our citizens to Britain to disappear and they could do the same with theirs. It's probably what they have in mind.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #3 of 26 (permalink) Old 11-14-2006, 09:40 AM
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I can only assume, but in my experience, your individual latitude in such Countries depends on how influential your friends are i.e. how highly they are placed. Unlike the so alled Democracies we live in, the laws there are evidently more fluid, and there to be bend or broken.
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post #4 of 26 (permalink) Old 11-14-2006, 10:09 AM
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In states that issued from the British Isles, Habeaus Corpus is considered a basic human right. Among the barbarians of the world, it is not. Now you know one of the things that separates us from them.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #5 of 26 (permalink) Old 11-14-2006, 11:02 AM Thread Starter
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I wonder how Jakarta Midnight Express, Jaychicken, Botnst and guage are going to defend the president's position on this?
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post #6 of 26 (permalink) Old 11-14-2006, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Professor
I wonder how Jakarta Midnight Express, Jaychicken, Botnst and guage are going to defend the president's position on this?
Three things.

First, there is an appeals process for non-citizens who are accused of being illegal enemy combatants.

Second, legal enemy combatants have the full protection of the Geneva Conventions and legally must be treated as legal POW's.

Third, this process hasn't had a court challenge yet. It may go to the SC and get shut down or some such. It's early in the game.

And from my own perspective, I think it sucks.

I have absolutely no sympathy for combatants caught on the field of battle who do not observe the Geneva Conventions. F**k them. I have slightly more sympathy for aliens in the USA illegally. F'rinstance, I think illegal aliens should have some small protections such as habeus corpus and right to counsel and right to face his accuser, but not necessarily a civilian court. Haul'em before a court martial or some other venue created by congress.

Legal aliens should get the full protection of civil law except there should be a low threshold for deportation.

Citizens retain all rights, no matter what. Thus that dirty bomb guy and whatsisname Hamdi should have full civil protection.

In my world.

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post #7 of 26 (permalink) Old 11-14-2006, 03:13 PM Thread Starter
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Bot, I am all for getting terrorist locked up as long as they are terrorists.
The executive here is taking it upon itself to write the law and force it down the system and our throats under the pretext of "war on terror". This is giving the executive powers that can be easily abused. Today it is foreigners and if we accept this bullshit tomorrow it will be Americans. There is no defined line where we should accept to take away the rights of people to have fair hearings. It should be an all or nothing. Anyone in our country should be entitled to a fair hearing but once found guilty I am all for prison and even execution either be it foreigners or Americans. The law should be the law of the land not the law for certain people in the land.
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post #8 of 26 (permalink) Old 11-14-2006, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Professor
Bot, I am all for getting terrorist locked up as long as they are terrorists.
1. The executive here is taking it upon itself to write the law and force it down the system and our throats under the pretext of "war on terror". This is giving the executive powers that can be easily abused.

2. Today it is foreigners and if we accept this bullshit tomorrow it will be Americans.

3. The law should be the law of the land not the law for certain people in the land.
1. To be legal Congress had to pass it through both houses. It is the law of the land no matter how much you hate Bush. It was constitutionally enacted. It maybe unconstitutional. It will be challenged in civil court. Count on it. From there it will go to the Supremes and we'll find out whether it meets muster. In either case, the law can be changed or rescinded by Congress.

2. The slippery slope argument. How come it's okay to use it for this law but the silly rightwingers don't get to use the slippery slope argument against gay marriage?

3. On this we disagree. If all people in the USA are treated equally then citizenship has no meaning. Open the gates. Mr Bush, tear down that wall!
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post #9 of 26 (permalink) Old 11-14-2006, 04:34 PM
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post #10 of 26 (permalink) Old 11-14-2006, 06:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Professor
I wonder how Jakarta Midnight Express, Jaychicken, Botnst and guage are going to defend the president's position on this?
Oh Thank you for your concern. I am sure that Jay, Bot and Gauge also feel relieved that you are looking out for them.

But if things aew really going this way then I can only ask 1 thing......How did you get internet posting facilities while locked up, did they release you already? Damn I rhought you could be held indefinitely.
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