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post #41 of 44 (permalink) Old 11-14-2006, 01:50 PM
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Dave again you are so full of shit. How many people in the US out of the 300 million have your skills? You are talking less than 2%. That's good for you but shit for the rest, that's why I told you to wake the hell up. The world is not a reflection of your situation.
You said it, you have people from all over the world wherever you work. Again, do some stats and tell me the % of Americans or people that went through our fked up educational system that are in these companies. Once the well dries do you think these foreigners are going to stick around?
I also consult in the IT field (in the summer) and do what you do exactly and more. Not only I investigate their business processes but I actually design new ones and add security layers to their infrastructure. I make pittance teaching during the year but I make it up in the summer. However I gauge my world from the every day workingman just like GS pointed out.
A couple of years ago I did some research for a chip maker in Dallas and I can tell you that the local work force was sweeping the floors while engineers with H1 visas were calling the shots on how many little toys they can fit in a wafer. The day China has that capability (very soon) those same engineers would rather be close to home (China itself, India, Pakistan and so on) rather than feeling like criminals once they step out of their work place. I spoke with many of them and they feel and know how racists we are but they take it because they know they have a brighter future in the long run.
Now go get real Davy
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post #42 of 44 (permalink) Old 11-14-2006, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Professor
Dave again you are so full of shit. How many people in the US out of the 300 million have your skills? You are talking less than 2%. That's good for you but shit for the rest, that's why I told you to wake the hell up. The world is not a reflection of your situation.
You said it, you have people from all over the world wherever you work. Again, do some stats and tell me the % of Americans or people that went through our fked up educational system that are in these companies. Once the well dries do you think these foreigners are going to stick around?
I also consult in the IT field (in the summer) and do what you do exactly and more. Not only I investigate their business processes but I actually design new ones and add security layers to their infrastructure. I make pittance teaching during the year but I make it up in the summer. However I gauge my world from the every day workingman just like GS pointed out.
A couple of years ago I did some research for a chip maker in Dallas and I can tell you that the local work force was sweeping the floors while engineers with H1 visas were calling the shots on how many little toys they can fit in a wafer. The day China has that capability (very soon) those same engineers would rather be close to home (China itself, India, Pakistan and so on) rather than feeling like criminals once they step out of their work place. I spoke with many of them and they feel and know how racists we are but they take it because they know they have a brighter future in the long run.
Now go get real Davy
So is the problem that they are here or that they are going to leave because they hate us so much? I am confused.

I have not met a single Indian, Pakastani, of Chinese person who does not plan to raise his/her children here. They vote with their feet.

Maybe California is different than Baltimore. Are you guys really racist out there?

Was it a Texas thing?

I have a black colleague who jokes about how he doesn't like going to Texas. He isn't completely joking, of course.

My wife speaks Mandarin (she went to school in Taiwan) and I have developed close relationships with quite a few people born, raised and educated in China (until they were able to attend US Universities). None of them want to subject their kids to the way they grew up in China. And they have plenty of opportunities to go back NOW and make boatloads of money. But they stay.

Baltimore may be more oppressive than Communist China, I don't know, but it seems strange that your experience is so different than mine.

I stand by my original premise that a global economy that unleashes the human capital held in chains by Communism for so long will benefit the entire world.

Will the left release it's death grip on education and stand up to the challenges of the 21st Century? No, of course not. That is being left to education outside of government schools. OTJT and the like.
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post #43 of 44 (permalink) Old 11-14-2006, 10:53 PM
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Originally Posted by DaveN007
So is the problem that they are here or that they are going to leave because they hate us so much? I am confused.

I have not met a single Indian, Pakastani, of Chinese person who does not plan to raise his/her children here. They vote with their feet.

Maybe California is different than Baltimore. Are you guys really racist out there?

Was it a Texas thing?

I have a black colleague who jokes about how he doesn't like going to Texas. He isn't completely joking, of course.

My wife speaks Mandarin (she went to school in Taiwan) and I have developed close relationships with quite a few people born, raised and educated in China (until they were able to attend US Universities). None of them want to subject their kids to the way they grew up in China. And they have plenty of opportunities to go back NOW and make boatloads of money. But they stay.

Baltimore may be more oppressive than Communist China, I don't know, but it seems strange that your experience is so different than mine.

I stand by my original premise that a global economy that unleashes the human capital held in chains by Communism for so long will benefit the entire world.

Will the left release it's death grip on education and stand up to the challenges of the 21st Century? No, of course not. That is being left to education outside of government schools. OTJT and the like.
Dave, as an IT Analyst, you know you have to look at all sides of an issue before drawing a conclusion. This problem has many more than one side. The issue that most in the US have with CHINA is not RACISM, nor is it bigotry. You throw those into the discussion to try and change the discussion.

First, speaking as a seasoned Systems Architect, neither you nor I produce ANYTHING. Production is done through manufacturing. If your company manufactures, then it does but we, in IT and Systems do not. Now, to the subject.

The problem the Left and most Americans have with China and India have nothing to do with Racism. It has to do with a NON COMPETITIVE SYSTEM. The economies of both China and India allow them to provide production at a cost level that no 1st Tier Economic Country can. The US cannot compete with a country where labor employees make $2 a day, live in substandard housing without running water, with open sewers, and with disease rampant. When the governments of these countries actually help sponsor that standard of living to insure that they keep contracts, that furthers the economic divide between the US and those countries.

The trade imbalance between the US and China and the US and India in caused by this disparity of worker income AND the government sponsorship of the industry AND non-existent environmental regulations. I inspected a series of “plants” outside of Shanghai in 1994 for a hardware rationalization project. One “plant” consisted of a series of screw machines set up in the living room of a house putting out 10,000 screws a day. Good enterprising work, you say. Except for the amount of oil and metal fragments that a machine that makes screws puts into the air [and lungs] was 8 feet from four children’s bedroom. Those machines ran 12 hours a day. Another “plant” ran off chromium from a plating bath into the street, just up from the towns well. All government sanctioned. These were not cherry picked exceptions.

On an equal playing field the US will compete with anyone. We will even give up points. But China and India, and now you can add Viet Nam and a few others to the list, are playing with a stacked deck that is breaking America’s Industrial Back. If we don’t fight back, YOUR retirement, and that of your kids, will pay for it.

McBear,
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Being smart is knowing the difference, in a sticky situation between a well delivered anecdote and a well delivered antidote - bear.
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post #44 of 44 (permalink) Old 11-15-2006, 12:39 AM
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Originally Posted by mcbear
Dave, as an IT Analyst, you know you have to look at all sides of an issue before drawing a conclusion. This problem has many more than one side. The issue that most in the US have with CHINA is not RACISM, nor is it bigotry. You throw those into the discussion to try and change the discussion.

First, speaking as a seasoned Systems Architect, neither you nor I produce ANYTHING. Production is done through manufacturing. If your company manufactures, then it does but we, in IT and Systems do not. Now, to the subject.

The problem the Left and most Americans have with China and India have nothing to do with Racism. It has to do with a NON COMPETITIVE SYSTEM. The economies of both China and India allow them to provide production at a cost level that no 1st Tier Economic Country can. The US cannot compete with a country where labor employees make $2 a day, live in substandard housing without running water, with open sewers, and with disease rampant. When the governments of these countries actually help sponsor that standard of living to insure that they keep contracts, that furthers the economic divide between the US and those countries.

The trade imbalance between the US and China and the US and India in caused by this disparity of worker income AND the government sponsorship of the industry AND non-existent environmental regulations. I inspected a series of “plants” outside of Shanghai in 1994 for a hardware rationalization project. One “plant” consisted of a series of screw machines set up in the living room of a house putting out 10,000 screws a day. Good enterprising work, you say. Except for the amount of oil and metal fragments that a machine that makes screws puts into the air [and lungs] was 8 feet from four children’s bedroom. Those machines ran 12 hours a day. Another “plant” ran off chromium from a plating bath into the street, just up from the towns well. All government sanctioned. These were not cherry picked exceptions.

On an equal playing field the US will compete with anyone. We will even give up points. But China and India, and now you can add Viet Nam and a few others to the list, are playing with a stacked deck that is breaking America’s Industrial Back. If we don’t fight back, YOUR retirement, and that of your kids, will pay for it.
I concur. Just add SS and Medicare taxes to the equarion.
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