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post #11 of 17 (permalink) Old 11-11-2006, 08:58 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by FeelTheLove
In the case of Iran, they will handle it on their own.

It is within the strategic interests of the United States to aid a friendly democracy located at the crossroads of three continents. I hope we give them all the weapons they need forever. The difference between them and the Iraqis is the Israelis are willing to die for a country they built with their own blood, just like we did. Any democracy in that situation deserves our help. Iraq, on the other hand, is a fictional country invented by us and imposed on them. Until some government emerges that has the obvious backing of a people willing to die for what they have created, it will be a useless waste of time.
You mean the Iraqis that died in the Iraq/Iran war was only because of Saddam and not in the umbrella of either defending their country or enhancing its capability/oil reach? You analogy does not hold water because you are labeling one side as brave while the other as cowards for some reason that held water almost sixty years ago. FTL, sometimes you just bullshit for the sake of bullshit, please pick up a hsitory book.
This is where I tend to agree more with Botnst than FTL.
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post #12 of 17 (permalink) Old 11-11-2006, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Professor
You mean the Iraqis that died in the Iraq/Iran war was only because of Saddam and not in the umbrella of either defending their country or enhancing its capability/oil reach? You analogy does not hold water because you are labeling one side as brave while the other as cowards for some reason that held water almost sixty years ago. FTL, sometimes you just bullshit for the sake of bullshit, please pick up a hsitory book.
This is where I tend to agree more with Botnst than FTL.
I'll tell you where it's different Prof. All Israelis benefit from nationalism and a strong central government. I don't believe that could be said of Iraq. In fact, it might be fair to say that a substantial portion of the Iraqi population was actually pulling for Iran. I suppose we could bring the Palestinians into the equation to shoot me down, but why go there?

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #13 of 17 (permalink) Old 11-11-2006, 09:15 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by GermanStar
I'll tell you where it's different Prof. All Israelis benefit from nationalism and a strong central government. I don't believe that could be said of Iraq. In fact, it might be fair to say that a substantial portion of the Iraqi population was actually pulling for Iran. I suppose we could bring the Palestinians into the equation to shoot me down, but why go there?
Are we part of that central government? That was my point with this thread; it seems that we have to bend over for that government so our government can function. How fucked up is our system that we have to take an entrance exam that determines our loyalty to another government so we can operate ours without hindrance or bad press. This is the bullshit I am pointing out, take the Iraqis out off this equation and stay focused. FTL was mixing the two to divert the main issue; what's that called again?
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post #14 of 17 (permalink) Old 11-11-2006, 09:29 AM
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OK, that's different -- I was tugging on the tangent line. I'm all for Israel, but I'm not interested in handing over my money to support them. Time for them to leave the roost and make it on their own, just like Mary Tyler Moore.

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post #15 of 17 (permalink) Old 11-11-2006, 09:35 AM Thread Starter
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OK, that's different. I'm all for Israel, but I'm not interested in handing over my money to support them. Time for them to leave the roost and make it on their own, just like Mary Tyler Moore.
And that's the point!
Israel has a right to exist, thrive and be protected when needed just like any other country. We have to stop this insanity of tying up our loyalty to our country tightly coupled with Israel's. My problem is not Israel, my problem is that we are catering to a foreign country and letting it literally dictate our foreign policies and even our national policies. This is not healthy.
I will not accept that France, Germany or any country to have such powerful grip on our law making aparatus so why the special treatment for Israel? Do we owe Israel some debt or something that I am not aware of?
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post #16 of 17 (permalink) Old 11-11-2006, 10:10 AM
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Every PAC that has the money offers "educational seminars" to the Congress. Sometimes they are at golf resorts in Scotland, or a trip to a resort community in some foreign land. It is amazing what those mofos in Congress get away with, off the books.

When I was a kid my Father was XO of a naval mission to a South American country. His job was to teach the local navy how to run a destroyer as my Dad had just returned from duty as a destroyer captain in the Pacific. A second job he had was essentially public relations. In that capacity he received orders to meet a member of the US House and show him around during a 2-day visit in the region.

So my Dad shows up at the hotel to pick-up the congressman. The rep was a half-hour late and my Dad, having seen lots of drunken sailors in his day, knew the guy was hung-over from the night before. Dad asks about rep's wife (Dad told there would be two). Rep said she didn't accompany him. The rep was in an offical gov capacity representing the Congress of the USA. People who would meet him would think he was typical of the US House (maybe he was?). So here's this hung-over lout dressed as a tourist, including a camera around his neck.

My Dad had spent the previous 1.5 years cultivating relationships with the local military and diplomatic staffs representing a number of countries. Same with various international corporations and local businessmen. Mom & Dad were deep in the local social scene and we frequently hosted parties for these folks (we kids were always introduced at these affairs and then sent to a far corner of the house and told to keep out of the way). My family lived in a neighborhood of locals and my brothers and sisters and I all went to local schools and were taught in Spanish. We came to love the country and my Mother flies that country's flag next to our own on their independence day.

So my Dad has to take this rep around and introduce him to the city and especially show deference to him for 2 reasons. #1 in our country the military always publicly acknowledges that Congress is higher on the food chain that a military officer. The second reason was that the US gov tries to demonstrate to these countries that the military works for the civilian government. My dad had a 2-day living nightmare with that guy.

My Dad said his worst humiliation was when my Dad told the driver to drive through a desperately poor section of the city. Dad in his dress whites, rep in shorts and an hawaiian shirt and sandals. The rep noticed a lot of children dressed raggedly were following the car as it slowly wound it's way through the streets. Rep asked what they were doing. Dad said they were begging for money. Rep asks the driver to stop. Rep gets out of the car as the kids approach and throws a couple of centavos to them, which they scramble for. Rep takes pix and throws some more, rep takes pix. Dad and Dad's driver look around and notice the adults staring at them with unconcealed hostility. Rep keeps it up. They drive off without any more tours since Rep has a golf game to play.

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post #17 of 17 (permalink) Old 11-11-2006, 10:21 AM Thread Starter
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That is so typical Bot. I have seen shit like that with my own eyes when I traveled for the WB and just like you my dad at one time was representing the country and we traveled to bridge with other cultures and establish good will.
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