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post #41 of 70 (permalink) Old 12-14-2006, 09:06 AM
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Libertarians are the party that want poor folks dying in the street.

B
Can't we just send them to Idaho?

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post #42 of 70 (permalink) Old 12-14-2006, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by QBNCGAR
"Today, less than 3 percent of hourly employees in America make the minimum wage or less. And 28 states already have laws requiring a minimum wage higher than the federal standard."
I think this backs up my original thesis for the most part.
The way I see it, higher minimum wages reduce the number of low paying jobs available and make business owners less likely to expand their employee base. So, IMO, higher minimum wages benefit the underemployed at the expense of the unemployed. A dubious proposal at best. I'd be curious at what the overall benefits (if any) are. Do unemployed people suffer more for the lack of opportunities than the minimum wage workers benefit or do minimum wage workers benefit more than the unemployed suffer? Should the government be the one who decides what this right level is... or should market forces be utilized? Do you think the immigration problem is an outgrowth of the minimum wage (in other words are companies more likely to hire illegals to avoid paying the minimum wage)? I personally think so and any rise in the minimum wage is likely to increase the demand for undocumented workers who don't need to be paid MW.

This is a much thornier problem than "I want to help the poor so raise the minimum wage." There are multitudinous impacts associated with the MW that defy easy categorization. Unfortunately, we have a bunch of sound bite talking panderers who don't have the slightest interest in getting it right, just getting votes.
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post #43 of 70 (permalink) Old 12-14-2006, 01:25 PM
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The woman could barely speak the language, aside from "I need more mawwwneee."

Of course, that's just Florida, right?

...
Especially the elusive family of four, with two adults working at minimum wage, because they have absolutely no other prospects for employment. THAT'S why we need a minimum wage / living wage.

Yeah, my white ass.
Do you find the white sheets especially comfortable just after they come out of the dryer?

Sorry, couldn't resist. But in all seriousness, that 4-5 million people that are included in the "just 3%" that you quoted might differ with your assessment. And the fact that NPR went to major metropolitan areas to look for minimum wage jobs shows a gross flaw in their logic as well. They need to wander down into the sticks where the number is much more common [and much higher that any 3%].

I just posted a picture of a community in Pendleton County KY that had a flood in 97 up on Vintage subforum. It is the location of a business that is crushing 1000 Mercedes over the next month from the salvage yard. Their main biz address was flooded but the point is the poverty level there is 31%. After the flood, all business pulled out or did not rebuild. Most folks had nothing and could not afford to move to "the city" to start over. The owner said he could not find help. Turned out, he had not tried. I made a call to the unemployment office and got 122 people willing to go out in the fields at 15-25 degrees to wrench parts at $7.50 per hour within one day. They were starving for work. It just did not exist. The unemployment office kept telling me that "you don't need to pay over $5.15 for that kind of work". Even our government puts the bar at the legal minimum for hard labor.

As for the "two adult, family of four" on minimum wage [or very near], sorry to burst your delusions but they are all over this country. Every time you want cheap labor, you contribute. Every time you go to WalMart, you contribute.

And the notion that only Bartenders/wait staff gets minimum, think again. First, they only get $2.12 per hour as the 15% tip is calculated into their expected wages. Rephrased for the obtuse, a waitress that works a six hour shift only gets $12.72 for the six hours. His/her tips then make up the difference [BUT WAIT...] he/she has to split part of the tip money with the busboys and expeditors. So when you get your calculator out and shave that tip down to exactly 15% just remember that.

Besides restaurant staff, recipients of minimum wage are many Walmart employees, landscaper workers, gardeners, construction helpers, daycare helpers, schoolbus drivers in rural areas, a good number of the undocumented illegals.

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Kentucky

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post #44 of 70 (permalink) Old 12-14-2006, 01:37 PM
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^^^^^^^
And Bear comes with the counterpoint.
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post #45 of 70 (permalink) Old 12-14-2006, 01:45 PM
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Still thick as a brick and filled with piss & vinegar I see.

Perhaps the fact that NPR, or anyone who has tried for that matter, have such a hard time finding people who are actually earning only the minimum wage has escaped you. Your case holds no water whatsoever.

Again, employers are struggling to find help - the tight labor market has done more to affect wages for low-paying jobs than a dimwitted institution like the minimum wage ever could.

The stories of employers who can't find good help at small companies are almost endlessly abound. I've said it before, and I'll say it again - there are two types of people who are living in poverty in America; those who physically/mentally cannot work and are without insurance, and those who make the choice not work (actively or passively). The work is out there. It's available to anyone. I spit upon the person free of handicap or ailment who would rather sing "Woe is me" and starve or beg, than to be an adult, do the responsible thing and take a job - any job - at market rates. You can get $9/hr to make fucking sandwiches in this country. If those people can't find good work, it makes anyone else who is unemployed look as if they WANT to remain destitute.

The argument for increasing minimum wages is the classic straw man case. This is a gigantic liberal political circle jerk - only the people in the circle will get any satisfaction from it.
SPIT ON THEM? How Fn Arrogant!!

First, increasing minimum wage is not a strawman argument by definition. Because you don’t see the hundred shades of gray between 1) those who physically/mentally cannot work 2) those who make the choice not to work (actively or passively) does not mean they don’t exist. Circumstances beyond the control of many keep folks from the ability to change all the time.

An example. You and your wife are NOT skilled workers, yet have been working at a textile plant for 20 years. You have 3 kids. Textile plants do not pay well, but that pay a living wage so ends are met. You have put a roof over your head and you have money in the bank for the 3 kids to go to state college. Not bad. Some debt but realistic and no problems. Plant moves to Jamaica. All 600 employees in the community are jobless at the same time. County is 6,000, town is 1,200. Nearest “city” is 70 miles away. Child care has been parents. No other textile or pieces/parts manufacturing jobs within 300 miles [all offshored].

Now you might say I cherrypicked that but I am looking at a database with over 3,300 families in Eastern Kentucky with stories very much like that since I got involved in the project in 2001. East Tennessee, West Virginia, Virginia, North Carolina, Ohio, Indiana and most any other state has similar databases.

Now I normally don’t say something like this but if you want to spit on those folks without understanding their circumstance, without trying to help them, you need to come through me. You won’t enjoy the trip.

McBear,
Kentucky

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Last edited by mcbear; 12-14-2006 at 01:55 PM.
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post #46 of 70 (permalink) Old 12-14-2006, 01:52 PM
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A rising tidy bowl

I find it very interesting that the same people who support offshoring and global trade [even though those governments set artificial tariffs] with the concept that "a rising tide raises all boats" turns and fights a raise in minimum wage because "a rising tide raises all boats"?

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post #47 of 70 (permalink) Old 12-14-2006, 01:57 PM
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Bear,

How does raising the MW help these folks you are using as an example? They are unemployed therefore MW isn't going to help. Isn't raising the MW going to suppress potential employers from hiring more employees thereby magnifying these people's hardships??
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post #48 of 70 (permalink) Old 12-14-2006, 03:04 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mcbear
An example. You and your wife are NOT skilled workers, yet have been working at a textile plant for 20 years. You have 3 kids. Textile plants do not pay well, but that pay a living wage so ends are met. You have put a roof over your head and you have money in the bank for the 3 kids to go to state college. Not bad. Some debt but realistic and no problems. Plant moves to Jamaica. All 600 employees in the community are jobless at the same time. County is 6,000, town is 1,200. Nearest “city” is 70 miles away. Child care has been parents. No other textile or pieces/parts manufacturing jobs within 300 miles [all offshored].

Now you might say I cherrypicked that but I am looking at a database with over 3,300 families in Eastern Kentucky with stories very much like that since I got involved in the project in 2001. East Tennessee, West Virginia, Virginia, North Carolina, Ohio, Indiana and most any other state has similar databases.
Mac - there's nothing noble about suffering. There's nothing noble about self-victimization.

People who become unemployed by no fault of their own, and who remain unemployed to the point of poverty/bankruptcy/starvation aren't fighting the good fight - they're pathetic idiots. So what if the jobs are 70 miles away...get packing. This is a very easy decision. Work or starve.

I say again - you can make $9 / hour making sandwiches in this country. The morale of that story is that, while without marketable skills you probably won't bat down $10+ per hour, you WILL DEFINITELY do better than minimum wage if you can figure out how to get a cheap haircut once every other month, how to be someplace on-time, and how to take baths regularly enough to keep from stinking or looking like pig pen.

Just because this isn't a truth in one's uniquely rural locale doesn't make it a falsehood worthy of intervention by our federal government.

If I'm faced with the choices of hunger or uprooting my family to find greener pastures, we're moving. Citing your straw-family, I'm dipping into the college funds and moving to a metropolis of some kind. That's because I'm a responsible adult, not a "victim". As it applies to unemployment, being a "victim" is a state of mind. If you think you are, then you are. If you don't, you're not. So the people you cite were textile workers - where's the rule that says you're entitled or obligated to do the same job all your life? If you can't work in a textile plant, you get to blame your plight on the government??? What the fuck is this fantasyworld you live in??? Can you feed kids with blame and hatred toward the government? And what does ANY of this have to do with a minimum wage????

It's been said that in life, you can be right, or you can be happy. I don't begrudge either decision, but DON'T COME LOOKING INTO MY WALLET to support people who won't do the right thing.
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post #49 of 70 (permalink) Old 12-14-2006, 03:08 PM
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post #50 of 70 (permalink) Old 12-14-2006, 03:08 PM
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Bear,

How does raising the MW help these folks you are using as an example? They are unemployed therefore MW isn't going to help. Isn't raising the MW going to suppress potential employers from hiring more employees thereby magnifying these people's hardships??
Actually there are three separate discussion going on on this thread.

First is the Minimum Wage issue.

Second is the "people who can't/won't find work" topic that spins those as only lazy or incapable or stupid.

Third is the offshore/Walmart component of the thread.

The three sometimes get very blurred together in a post and get confusing for everyone [me included].

Raising the Minimum Wage will neither help or hurt that group in that Potential Employers have written off the area and gone offshore for $0.50hr workers. Unfortunately the only way to get those jobs back would be to tariff goods brought in and that is not a good solution either.

All minimum wage increases do is provide an arbitrary baseline that says that we, as a society believe we must at least provide this amount if a person puts in the required effort to work. It is based on costs of living and keeps unscrupulous employers from treating workers poor in an area where there are minimal jobs for them to go to “other jobs”. It is not Social Engineering nor is it government handout. It is work for pay.

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