Originally Posted by jm55
You guys are so full of hate of Bush that you can't see the forest for the trees and are simply resorting to name calliling ("the real liar is you). You all know that the UN passed with a large majority the resolution authorizing what happened and then would not carry through on it and you all know that there were more nations than the UK and the US going to Iraq. We also all know that Clinton and Kerry both saw the same intelligence and stated he had WMD's. I don't believe Bush lied anymore than I believe that Clinton (about this anyway) or Kerry did. I think they were wrong and going into Iraq was a mistake and I think mistakes have been made since we have been there, but I also don't believe we should abandon it. And all the name calling ("Bush lied ") is just a bunch of political postering. I don't have proof he didn't lie anymore than you have proof he did. And to make statements like that is political propadana. If you want to say he was wrong and that he managed this situation with incompetence, you have some very good arguments to make that support that, but when you start with Bush lied you just sound like the moveon.org and Cindy Sheehan groups and the rest of what you say just becomes noise. I won't continue this disucssion because I am here for cars and should not have even responded the first time. JUst get tired of the all the politicizing of the situation over there. Only made it worse by responding. Best to you all.
I love the line "Clinton and Kerry both saw the same intelligence and stated he had WMDs." For one thing, when Clinton saw the information he did not conclude Saddam was about to do much of anything, because Saddam was pinned down by No-Fly Zones and constant harrassment by our Air Force, and he elected to never even propose to do anything else. And Kerry was what was prepared for him by Bush. By design we have one DOD, one CIA, and one FBI and they are much more under the direction of the President than a Senator from Massachusetts. So, like all the people who now feel duped, he was given access to what Bush and Cheney and Rumsfeld and Tenet wanted them to have access. Any debate on the subject was met with screeching about yellow cake and the imminent danger and, well, you were a pussy or a traitor if you didn't get on Bush's side. Unfortunately it worked. Which really means most of Congress is a bunch of pussies who abandoned their posts when the going got rough.
As for lying, well, there are tapes of tv interviews where Cheney says we know exactly where the WMD are. Where Bush says the major combat is over. Where Bush tells America he has no clandestine wiretapping scheme, and that no wiretapping will be conducted without a warrant, after he had signed his second annual "renewal" of the secret wiretapping program. This is how it goes, once you lie about important stuff, you are a liar. Once you are a liar, the barrier to lying has been broken down. Like the first time you got laid, it was a big deal. After a dozen times you lose count. No big deal anymore. So, once Bush and his cohorts lied, they lost credibility, and now, justifiably, everything they say is presumed to be spinning bullshit that has to settle down to be examined and verified to be factual. "America doesn't torture" but we have to silence some guy we have held for three years in secret prisons because he might reveal our methods and the bad guys can then learn to resist them. Yeah. That's the ticket. Remember, when people, even good people, get in over their heads and fail, they begin to do things we might not have expected. Lying and fraud are typically the result of not dealing with bad shit when it is fresh, just been pinched off, bad shit. Letting it sit around and calling it something other than the shit that it is, only makes things worse. At the very least Bush and his team are guilty of lying about the bad shit they caused in Iraq.
I am as fed up with this stuff as you. I just can't cut the man any slack, he has ruined the reputation of a great military and set America on a poorly thought out, never debated in Congress, god knows how long confrontation with Islam for some hidden agenda. The present excuse for the troops being there has nothing to do with the original WMD and terrorism story. The blunder is so bad, if you did something like it in private business you would be sitting next to that Enron guy who just got sentenced.