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post #21 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-03-2006, 02:24 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by QBNCGAR
Talk to us after a terrorist flies a Quantas jet into the Sydney Opera House mid-performance.
Are you inferring that there were no laws already in existance, which respected justice and process, to deal with that kind of action? Whoever breaks the law should be tried in accordance with the law, but with the long held principles of justice and process.

My confusion is based around the denial of process which makes the law as fascist as those it purports to be made to try.

Isn't the aim of the exercise to demonstrate that liberal democratic values are the more appropriate form of society?

I we stoop to their level doesn't it make us as bad as them (whoever 'they' may be)?

BTW - there is no U in Qantas.

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post #22 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-03-2006, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Professor
Keep believing that and the day when it will be mendatory that you salute King George your ass will be hauled away if the slautation did not include a form of reverence.
I will tell you this, and you can take it to the bank: I have zero concern that this will happen to me as long as I'm alive. Before ANY President of the United States gets that kind of power there will be a revolution. We still have the Senate and the House that are in no way a rubber stamp to any President, and a Supreme Court that has little if any allegiance to any political party. I still believe in our system of government, and if Bill Clinton couldn't screw it up, I know damn well that George can't. Clinton had the support of the media and he still got a good going over for his indiscretions. George doesn't have the press so there are plenty of eyes on him.
Seems like there are an awful lot of guys here that don't have that trust, I pity them, they will never feel safe at night.
Worst case scenario, I have what comes close to a bunker here, and enough equipment to certainly make a mess of more then one persons day, and I know I will not be alone............

"Negotiating with Obama is like playing chess with a pigeon, the pigeon knocks over all the pieces, on the board and then struts around like it won the game."
Vladimir Putin

"They have gun control in Cuba. They have universal health care in Cuba. So why do they want to come here?"
Paul Harvey 8/31/94


"The only people who have quick answers don't have the responsibility of making the decisions."
Justice Clarence Thomas
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post #23 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-03-2006, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Bruce R.
I will tell you this, and you can take it to the bank: I have zero concern that this will happen to me as long as I'm alive. Before ANY President of the United States gets that kind of power there will be a revolution. We still have the Senate and the House that are in no way a rubber stamp to any President, and a Supreme Court that has little if any allegiance to any political party. I still believe in our system of government, and if Bill Clinton couldn't screw it up, I know damn well that George can't. Clinton had the support of the media and he still got a good going over for his indiscretions. George doesn't have the press so there are plenty of eyes on him.
Seems like there are an awful lot of guys here that don't have that trust, I pity them, they will never feel safe at night.
Worst case scenario, I have what comes close to a bunker here, and enough equipment to certainly make a mess of more then one persons day, and I know I will not be alone............
Ahahahahaha
Yeah right!
Why do you think he is chipping away at the constitution and everything else a democracy stands for? It is just for what you described. The day we become an empire you will be striped of all forms or revolt or the slightest whimper about our state of affairs will land you in a torture chamber.
He is already working on having himself and his buddies exempt from war crime prosecution. What do you have to say about that, huh?
Keep on staying in denial, that is exactly the position they want you to stay in, bravo!
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post #24 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-03-2006, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by 420 SE
Are you inferring that there were no laws already in existance, which respected justice and process, to deal with that kind of action? Whoever breaks the law should be tried in accordance with the law, but with the long held principles of justice and process.
My confusion is based around the denial of process which makes the law as fascist as those it purports to be made to try.
Isn't the aim of the exercise to demonstrate that liberal democratic values are the more appropriate form of society?
I we stoop to their level doesn't it make us as bad as them (whoever 'they' may be)?
BTW - there is no U in Qantas.
If I remember more Austrailians died in Bali then local natives, didn't that make an impression on you at all?
Clinton tried to make Al Quada a law enforcement matter, and look where it got us........... Stop with the facist bull crap already, you may not like the law, but until the Supreme Court over rules it, it is still the law, and quite legal.

"Negotiating with Obama is like playing chess with a pigeon, the pigeon knocks over all the pieces, on the board and then struts around like it won the game."
Vladimir Putin

"They have gun control in Cuba. They have universal health care in Cuba. So why do they want to come here?"
Paul Harvey 8/31/94


"The only people who have quick answers don't have the responsibility of making the decisions."
Justice Clarence Thomas
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post #25 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-03-2006, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Professor
Ahahahahaha
Yeah right!
Why do you think he is chipping away at the constitution and everything else a democracy stands for? It is just for what you described. The day we become an empire you will be striped of all forms or revolt or the slightest whimper about our state of affairs will land you in a torture chamber.
He is already working on having himself and his buddies exempt from war crime prosecution. What do you have to say about that, huh?
Keep on staying in denial, that is exactly the position they want you to stay in, bravo!
Did you just change your position on this issue?
post #26 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-03-2006, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by 420 SE
Are you inferring that there were no laws already in existance, which respected justice and process, to deal with that kind of action? Whoever breaks the law should be tried in accordance with the law, but with the long held principles of justice and process.

My confusion is based around the denial of process which makes the law as fascist as those it purports to be made to try.

Isn't the aim of the exercise to demonstrate that liberal democratic values are the more appropriate form of society?

I we stoop to their level doesn't it make us as bad as them (whoever 'they' may be)?

BTW - there is no U in Qantas.
The action and circumstances are unprecedented in the history of the world. No, there weren't laws designed to deal with this threat. There are lots of laws, many of which should be more stridently enforced, and the enforcement of them might have obviated the need for this latest piece of legislation. That said, they weren't, and this law formally allows activities that were being conducted under the belief (or guise depending on who you listen to) that doing so was within our legal bounds.

Again, we're more clearly defining the process by which non-citizens are tried for a specifically heinous set of crimes. FTL aside, most of America has a pretty raw nerve still (myself among them), and we want to do anything possible to keep 9/11 from happening again. I don't expect everyone in the world to agree or be sympathetic, but you must at least be cognizant of the climate here regarding terrorism. It's a constant topic of discussion and concern. Every hour, every day.
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post #27 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-03-2006, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Professor
Ahahahahaha
Yeah right!
Why do you think he is chipping away at the constitution and everything else a democracy stands for? It is just for what you described. The day we become an empire you will be striped of all forms or revolt or the slightest whimper about our state of affairs will land you in a torture chamber.
He is already working on having himself and his buddies exempt from war crime prosecution. What do you have to say about that, huh?
Keep on staying in denial, that is exactly the position they want you to stay in, bravo!
Keep tilting at windmills Don Quixote, and eventually you may get one ...........
I have far more faith in our system then you apparently have. If you think George was bad, take a look at Abe Lincoln, and what he did, we survived that as well as a Civil War. The only way your scenario will ever happen is if the whining liberals don't have the cahones to back up their mouths and do something about it.

"Negotiating with Obama is like playing chess with a pigeon, the pigeon knocks over all the pieces, on the board and then struts around like it won the game."
Vladimir Putin

"They have gun control in Cuba. They have universal health care in Cuba. So why do they want to come here?"
Paul Harvey 8/31/94


"The only people who have quick answers don't have the responsibility of making the decisions."
Justice Clarence Thomas
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post #28 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-03-2006, 03:40 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce R.
If I remember more Austrailians died in Bali then local natives, didn't that make an impression on you at all?
Clinton tried to make Al Quada a law enforcement matter, and look where it got us........... Stop with the facist bull crap already, you may not like the law, but until the Supreme Court over rules it, it is still the law, and quite legal.
I have no difficulty with the passing of law. I have considerable difficulty when a law is passed which specifically abrogates the principles of justice - that is when we become fascist.

I understand the raw nerve that horrific events touch on everyone and I am in no way defending those who choose to impart their message in such a way. Those in Bali were captured, tried and sentenced according to law, but using the established process of law not a created law which removed those established processes.

But when we start to behave in a way which denies the long held (and fought) principles, I can't help but wonder if we are not descending down a slippery slope that we will find difficult to climb back up from.

Ross

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post #29 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-03-2006, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Professor
unlawful combatant will be anyone fighting a cause the US will not aprove. What part of that did you not understand?
That's just silly.

Unlawful combatant has a clear definition. If you didn't know that then you're speaking from ignorance concerning the laws and conventions of war.

B
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post #30 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-03-2006, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Professor
Keep believing that and the day when it will be mendatory that you salute King George your ass will be hauled away if the slautation did not include a form of reverence.
Read the law: It targets unlawful enemy combatants. Read the law. Don't pay attention to wacked-out people who will lie about this to advance their own political agenda. Read the law.

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