COURSE CHANGE Everyone Grab a Rail... - Page 7 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #61 of 88 (permalink) Old 10-26-2006, 06:06 AM
BenzWorld Elite
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: 95 E300
Location: Inside my head
Posts: 36,850
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 392 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbear
Thank you for proving my, and most of the Liberals in America's POINT.

That has been my point with Bush and Iraq since EVERY INTEL agency in the world told us US we were wrong yet we DECIDED to make up data and go anyway. We picked the Wrong Fight. Wrong Country, Wrong Reasons, Wrong Plan, Wrong Execution. RESULT=Al Qeada NOW in Iraq, Civil War, Religious War, Democracy told what to do and when by US. 100,000 to 500,000 Civilians Killed, US Reputation around world SHOT. NICE
Might've, could've would've. Too bad the opposition party lost the election and both houses of Cngress. had they won the trust of the voters they could have done a much better job. In just a few days we will have a great opportunity for restitution.

I of course, reject your assertion that books were cooked. Saying often and loud doesn't make something true.

B
Botnst is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #62 of 88 (permalink) Old 10-26-2006, 06:07 AM
BenzWorld Elite
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: 95 E300
Location: Inside my head
Posts: 36,850
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 392 Post(s)
[QUOTE=Zeitgeist]Didn't your momma teach you that it's rude to respond to a question with another question? ...

Did yours?
Botnst is offline  
post #63 of 88 (permalink) Old 10-26-2006, 06:09 AM
BenzWorld Elite
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: 95 E300
Location: Inside my head
Posts: 36,850
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 392 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by FeelTheLove
Yes, we all remember the success of our decade-long effort in Vietnam. As always, the trouble with you is that you see Iraq as some kind of homogenous society, where the bad elements will eventually give in. It is not, it is the spot on the map where three very large Kurdish, Sunni and Shiite camel noses are in the tent. You think ten years of swatting their noses while we bleed to death inside the tent is a "strategy". It is not.
Okay.

B
Botnst is offline  
post #64 of 88 (permalink) Old 10-26-2006, 06:18 AM Thread Starter
BenzWorld Elite
 
mcbear's Avatar
 
Date registered: Apr 2004
Vehicle: E500Es
Location: The BlueGrass State
Posts: 29,579
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
(Thread Starter)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Botnst
Might've, could've would've. Too bad the opposition party lost the election and both houses of Cngress. had they won the trust of the voters they could have done a much better job. In just a few days we will have a great opportunity for restitution.

I of course, reject your assertion that books were cooked. Saying often and loud doesn't make something true.

B
It is not just my assertion that the intel books were cooked, try the 9/11 Commission, Gen Powell, most Foreign Intel Agencies, the members of the US intel community that have spoken out.

And your first paragraph makes NO SENSE. What does that have to do with my point about BUSH'S picking the wrong fight. There goes more of that trying to movie the point again.

Reference flow.
You showed reasons to go to Iraq.
I listed reasons, based on your criteria to go to other countries
RFK said pick your fights,
You agreed,
I thanked you for proving my point that Bush had picked the wrong fight.

McBear,
Kentucky

Being smart is knowing the difference, in a sticky situation between a well delivered anecdote and a well delivered antidote - bear.
mcbear is offline  
post #65 of 88 (permalink) Old 10-26-2006, 06:37 AM
BenzWorld Elite
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: 95 E300
Location: Inside my head
Posts: 36,850
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 392 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbear
It is not just my assertion that the intel books were cooked, try the 9/11 Commission, Gen Powell, most Foreign Intel Agencies, the members of the US intel community that have spoken out.

And your first paragraph makes NO SENSE. What does that have to do with my point about BUSH'S picking the wrong fight. There goes more of that trying to movie the point again.

Reference flow.
You showed reasons to go to Iraq.
I listed reasons, based on your criteria to go to other countries
RFK said pick your fights,
You agreed,
I thanked you for proving my point that Bush had picked the wrong fight.
I read th e9/11 Commission Report. Twice. I also have kept up with a lot of analysis since. I have not seen any indication in FACT that books were cooked. Sometimes people are just plain wrong. Especially in intelligence issues where the burden of proof is utterly and completely on the accused.

The degree to which Bush picked this or that fight is directly dependent on his power. Had he not been elected, the chances are Mr Gore would have done some things differently. Or maybe not. that's all within teh realm of conjecture, not fact. Thus, the choice of whether or not to depose this or that tyrant was dependent entirely and utterly upon who is in power. That is exactly on point concerning 'picking your fights.' He who wins, picks.

You would have picked other fights or no fights? Great. Next time your party is in power (perhaps in afew days) then your party gets to make the choices. Until then, there is one party in power and your party ain't it.

B
Botnst is offline  
post #66 of 88 (permalink) Old 10-26-2006, 06:55 AM Thread Starter
BenzWorld Elite
 
mcbear's Avatar
 
Date registered: Apr 2004
Vehicle: E500Es
Location: The BlueGrass State
Posts: 29,579
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
(Thread Starter)
Quote:
Originally Posted by RFC
What?
Every Intel department in the world thought wmd's were there. You know I think if they found 1 or 500 shells with traces of toxin in them, that’s enough.
Not dangerous you say, take one and cook some of your bullshit stew in it
Then have a taste.

What better location in the ME than Iraq, we already were in Afghanistan
that's one hell of a foot print.
100,000 to 500,000 killed no way, check Iraq bodycount. They just don't
poll 1,800 house holds with no death certificates.
Reputation? You can bet there is a shit load of people in this world
that are damn glad that this administration is doing the bloody work
so they don't have too.(behind closed doors)

Gee, somebody it seems was already pissed off at us, they killed
Thousands of civilians in one day(lets go to Afghanistan, Pakistan)
Let’s drop the bomb. What’s world opinion then?

We have some great armchair hindsight Generals
On this forum, but I think they’ve been gargling
With Bong water.
Nice try but you really need to read up on current events. Try the archives of ANY newspaper prior to the war. Every nation's intel, except Britain, was saying that the WMD's were not in Iraq, backing up the UN inspectors reports that had been going on for years [Britain has since joined the rest of the world with their backing].

As for the "Quality" of the WMD found in Iraq, just search this forum. We have covered the subject extensively. Without going into annoying detail, my DES [Disaster & Emergency Services] Weekend Warrior job is with the Lexington Bluegrass Army Depot which houses a good chunk of the US’s WMD [GB, VX and Mustard] . What that means is the Army guys that work there also were in Iraq dealing with, guess what? So, the stuff they found was old [pre91], weak, not weapons grade and not usable. You would not want to drink it but it was not WMD either.

As for Civilian Deaths. Note that the website http://www.iraqbodycount.net/ , if you read their methodology, collects their numbers only by counting media reports of deaths. So, if a media source did not report it, they did not count it. No media counted, or would have been able to count the deaths surrounding the “Shock and Awe” opening of the Iraqi Conflict. Too much activity in that hot zone and no way for anyone to get in and do a count at the time for a media outlet to make a report. Independent humanitarian groups who do this research on a full time basis [as in calculating numbers for Rwanda or the Balkans or Darfur or the Christmas 04 Tsunami] have proven scientific methodology for calculating numbers like this. Anyone who is trained in polling and statistics understands just how accurate these kind of statistics are.

And don’t call me an armchair General, I worked for a living. I was a Major when I retired.

McBear,
Kentucky

Being smart is knowing the difference, in a sticky situation between a well delivered anecdote and a well delivered antidote - bear.
mcbear is offline  
post #67 of 88 (permalink) Old 10-26-2006, 07:11 AM Thread Starter
BenzWorld Elite
 
mcbear's Avatar
 
Date registered: Apr 2004
Vehicle: E500Es
Location: The BlueGrass State
Posts: 29,579
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
(Thread Starter)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Botnst
I read th e9/11 Commission Report. Twice. I also have kept up with a lot of analysis since. I have not seen any indication in FACT that books were cooked. Sometimes people are just plain wrong. Especially in intelligence issues where the burden of proof is utterly and completely on the accused.

The degree to which Bush picked this or that fight is directly dependent on his power. Had he not been elected, the chances are Mr Gore would have done some things differently. Or maybe not. that's all within teh realm of conjecture, not fact. Thus, the choice of whether or not to depose this or that tyrant was dependent entirely and utterly upon who is in power. That is exactly on point concerning 'picking your fights.' He who wins, picks.

You would have picked other fights or no fights? Great. Next time your party is in power (perhaps in afew days) then your party gets to make the choices. Until then, there is one party in power and your party ain't it.

B
Wow, you must have read a different version than I. Sometimes people are just wrong but there have been way too many instances on this one where the cat has got out of the bag for it to have just been poor intel. Our intel guys are not that bad by any stretch.

If, as you contend, that Bush did not cook the intel he had then you have to be saying that the US Intelligence Services are not capable of gleaning information from a country that we had just been at war with less than a decade earlier. We had intel infrastructure and people on the inside and we still could not, did not have the ABILITY to glean accurate information. YET, nearly every other intel agency in the world publicly announced that our intel was wrong, based on their intel. Do you have that little faith in our Intelligence Community?

You say you have not seen evidence of FACT that books were cooked. Did testimony by intel agents that the reports that they provided and the reports given to Congress and the UN were factually different not count as a FACT? If I give you a report that says the sky is blue and you report it as RED when, in fact, it is blue, did you cook the report? YES. You will rationalize why but it is still a cooked report.

As for the party in power stuff, you are trying to move the point again with irrelevant whitenoise.

McBear,
Kentucky

Being smart is knowing the difference, in a sticky situation between a well delivered anecdote and a well delivered antidote - bear.
mcbear is offline  
post #68 of 88 (permalink) Old 10-26-2006, 09:02 AM
Administratoris Emeritus
 
GeeS's Avatar
 
Date registered: Aug 2002
Vehicle: 2021 SL770
Location: Fountain Hills, AZ
Posts: 44,915
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Quoted: 591 Post(s)
Botnst is apparently hesitant to describe a 99% probability as "FACT". The Bush administration was actively seeking evidence to support a predisposed stance, rather than objectively weighing all evidence. That is obvious to all. My personal favorite was the administration's policy of rewarding Iraqi expatriates for "good" information, but sending them packing if they provided "true" information. The bias in the administration's "intelligence" gathering has been clearly demonstrated by a wide range of unrelated sources.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
GeeS is offline  
post #69 of 88 (permalink) Old 10-26-2006, 09:05 AM
RFC
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)
Quoted: Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbear
Nice try but you really need to read up on current events. Try the archives of ANY newspaper prior to the war. Every nation's intel, except Britain, was saying that the WMD's were not in Iraq, backing up the UN inspectors reports that had been going on for years [Britain has since joined the rest of the world with their backing].There is the hindsight again, I know what
was printed and broadcasted. UN please


As for the "Quality" of the WMD found in Iraq, just search this forum. We have covered the subject extensively. Without going into annoying detail, my DES [Disaster & Emergency Services] Weekend Warrior job is with the Lexington Bluegrass Army Depot which houses a good chunk of the US’s WMD [GB, VX and Mustard] . What that means is the Army guys that work there also were in Iraq dealing with, guess what? So, the stuff they found was old [pre91], weak, not weapons grade and not usable. You would not want to drink it but it was not WMD either. There it is again I know somebody that knows somebody (bull)
Either it was dangerous stuff or it wasn’t (I) think it is!


As for Civilian Deaths. Note that the website http://www.iraqbodycount.net/ , if you read their methodology, collects their numbers only by counting media reports of deaths. So, if a media source did not report it, they did not count it. No media counted, or would have been able to count the deaths surrounding the “Shock and Awe” opening of the Iraqi Conflict. Too much activity in that hot zone and no way for anyone to get in and do a count at the time for a media outlet to make a report. Independent humanitarian groups who do this research on a full time basis [as in calculating numbers for Rwanda or the Balkans or Darfur or the Christmas 04 Tsunami] have proven scientific methodology for calculating numbers like this. Anyone who is trained in polling and statistics understands just how accurate these kind of statistics are.With all the reporters on the ground over their you can bet they would have been lead to the sites and where for the big see what the US bombs did here speech. What percent of the dead are male?
And don’t call me an armchair General, I worked for a living. I was a Major when I retired.
If the shoe fits. Big stories on the web
post #70 of 88 (permalink) Old 10-26-2006, 09:07 AM
Administratoris Emeritus
 
GeeS's Avatar
 
Date registered: Aug 2002
Vehicle: 2021 SL770
Location: Fountain Hills, AZ
Posts: 44,915
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Quoted: 591 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by RFC
If the shoe fits. Big stories on the web
Should all countries with WMDs be invaded? Or just the ones who have actually used WMDs?

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
GeeS is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

  Mercedes-Benz Forum > General Mercedes-Benz Forums > Off-Topic

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Mercedes-Benz Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











  • Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
     
    Thread Tools
    Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
    Email this Page Email this Page
    Display Modes
    Linear Mode Linear Mode



    Similar Threads
    Topic Author Forum Replies Last Post
    404 grab handle Dog Taxi Unimog 1 10-21-2006 08:31 PM
    Anti Smash n grab little-hobo W203 C-Class 1 05-22-2006 03:35 PM
    Grab these H&R's while they last..... MBZER W126 S,SE,SEC,SEL,SD,SDL Class 8 04-17-2006 10:44 PM
    Smash and Grab '80 300SD ptoro01 W116 S, SE, SEL, SD Class 3 10-24-2005 08:22 PM
    Should I grab this AMG? briannelso W126 S,SE,SEC,SEL,SD,SDL Class 14 03-02-2004 09:13 AM

    Posting Rules  
    You may post new threads
    You may post replies
    You may not post attachments
    You may not edit your posts

    BB code is On
    Smilies are On
    [IMG] code is On
    HTML code is Off
    Trackbacks are On
    Pingbacks are On
    Refbacks are On

     

    Title goes here

    close
    video goes here
    description goes here. Read Full Story
    For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome