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post #51 of 88 (permalink) Old 10-25-2006, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Zeitgeist
What's with the touchy defensiveness? You actively troll your peculiar worldview around for all to see. I just ask that you defend it honestly from time to time. The problem boils down to the nasty fact that you're on the wrong side of history, here. Bummer for you. Bummer for me, too.
You have a funny way of explaining your deep knowledge, but ridiculing others and leaving your own definitive perspective shrouded in mystery. Why not come right out and show us your cute little dogma instead of hiding behind ritual sarcasm?

If that requires too much effort, or if the concise erudition eludes you, then why do you insist on personalizing your argument? It is so ... Stalinist.

B
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post #52 of 88 (permalink) Old 10-25-2006, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by mcbear
Well, with that logic, there are a whole bunch of countries to blow up. Nigeria keeps stopping oil production by kidnapping people. Blow um up. There is oil NEAR Darfur and we would get PR points if we saved a couple of women from getting raped. Blow um up. What about them Mexicans.
Like RFC implied, pick your fights.

B
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post #53 of 88 (permalink) Old 10-25-2006, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by mcbear
We could judge it with all the wars of the 20th Century, or the history of the US. Those would be two good guides since we have, in the past, considered ourselves to be the bearers of "the good fight". When you look at past US conflicts it is the exception that stands out where US troops acted out of character or without civil consideration. You do not see, as an example, such a LIMITED conflict as Iraq with such a high percentage of civilian casualties *. Are civilians killed, YES. Is it a absolute of war YES. Is it the responsibility to keep those to a minimum, YES.

*If you just use the MINIMUM 100,000 civilians killed to 3,000 Coalition troops against WW2-Europe where there were 3.810,000 civilians killed to 997,000 US/FR/GB troops. For the math impaired, we killed at a rate of 33:1 as opposed to just less than 4:1 in WW2-Europe. And to think we used precision guided weapons in this war. We should be causing LESS collateral damage, not more.
heck, I'd like to see the ratio go to 1,000:1 or a million to 1. I like the idea of reducing the death rate of our soldiers, don't you?

B
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post #54 of 88 (permalink) Old 10-25-2006, 08:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Botnst
You have a funny way of explaining your deep knowledge, but ridiculing others and leaving your own definitive perspective shrouded in mystery. Why not come right out and show us your cute little dogma instead of hiding behind ritual sarcasm?

If that requires too much effort, or if the concise erudition eludes you, then why do you insist on personalizing your argument? It is so ... Stalinist.

B
Didn't your momma teach you that it's rude to respond to a question with another question? Yes, I have positions, theories and philosophies, but the burden of explanation is in your court, simply because unlike me, you're defending positions, theories and philosophies shared with the sitting administration in the Whitehouse--the global powerbrokers who've f@#ked things up so badly.

Go back and re-read our ongoing discussions ('03 to present) regarding these issues. You'll see that my analysis/projections have consistently proven to be accurate. Yours, on the other hand, have consistently failed to perform to stated expectations.

As to personalizing the critiques, well that's entirely subjective and ever so slightly paranoid on your part. You're a rich target, because, unlike the other brain dead automatons around here/there who merely regurgitate Faux News/RNC memes, you've clearly put some thought into your positions, theories and philosophies. The problem is that those thoughts are sorely lacking in a moral foundation or a realistic assessment of the proper use and function of national /global power i.e. your military hammer sees non-existent nails.
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post #55 of 88 (permalink) Old 10-25-2006, 09:07 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Botnst
Like RFC implied, pick your fights.

B
Thank you for proving my, and most of the Liberals in America's POINT.

That has been my point with Bush and Iraq since EVERY INTEL agency in the world told us US we were wrong yet we DECIDED to make up data and go anyway. We picked the Wrong Fight. Wrong Country, Wrong Reasons, Wrong Plan, Wrong Execution. RESULT=Al Qeada NOW in Iraq, Civil War, Religious War, Democracy told what to do and when by US. 100,000 to 500,000 Civilians Killed, US Reputation around world SHOT. NICE

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Being smart is knowing the difference, in a sticky situation between a well delivered anecdote and a well delivered antidote - bear.
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post #56 of 88 (permalink) Old 10-25-2006, 09:08 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Botnst
heck, I'd like to see the ratio go to 1,000:1 or a million to 1. I like the idea of reducing the death rate of our soldiers, don't you?

B
For all the right reasons and ways.

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Being smart is knowing the difference, in a sticky situation between a well delivered anecdote and a well delivered antidote - bear.
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post #57 of 88 (permalink) Old 10-25-2006, 09:09 PM
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As a 24 year Navy Vet I have a somewhat different take than most guys who never served. In the military we are taught the chaain of command and the idea of responsiblity fron day one of boot camp. The Commander in Chief has the ultimate reps. for the troops and when no WMD's were not found he should have stepped up and taken that responsiblity. Period. As the CIC he should have done what is expected and demanded from the rest of the Chain of Command. For this breach of trust with the troops he should have done the right thing. Say "I was wrong". Then I would still support him but the GOp has screwed up much more than Clinton ever did. He just had a stain on a dress. The stain of the blood for our brave young men and women is on the hnads of this president. This is not the war on terrorism. Attaching a country who did not attach us on 9/11. Get our kids home and find Bin Laden!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

2003 SLK230 Auto transmission
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post #58 of 88 (permalink) Old 10-25-2006, 09:16 PM Thread Starter
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As a 24 year Navy Vet I have a somewhat different take than most guys who never served. In the military we are taught the chaain of command and the idea of responsiblity fron day one of boot camp. The Commander in Chief has the ultimate reps. for the troops and when no WMD's were not found he should have stepped up and taken that responsiblity. Period. As the CIC he should have done what is expected and demanded from the rest of the Chain of Command. For this breach of trust with the troops he should have done the right thing. Say "I was wrong". Then I would still support him but the GOp has screwed up much more than Clinton ever did. He just had a stain on a dress. The stain of the blood for our brave young men and women is on the hnads of this president. This is not the war on terrorism. Attaching a country who did not attach us on 9/11. Get our kids home and find Bin Laden!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Very true. Unfortunately, we are not going to get that with this administration.

And there are several vets here. BruceR is a former Thud jockey and I was 15 year AF [research]. Bot is also former Navy so Welcome aboard.

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Last edited by mcbear; 10-25-2006 at 09:18 PM.
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post #59 of 88 (permalink) Old 10-25-2006, 11:26 PM
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What?
Every Intel department in the world thought wmd's were there. You know I think if they found 1 or 500 shells with traces of toxin in them, that’s enough.
Not dangerous you say, take one and cook some of your bullshit stew in it
Then have a taste.

What better location in the ME than Iraq, we already were in Afghanistan
that's one hell of a foot print.
100,000 to 500,000 killed no way, check Iraq bodycount. They just don't
poll 1,800 house holds with no death certificates.
Reputation? You can bet there is a shit load of people in this world
that are damn glad that this administration is doing the bloody work
so they don't have too.(behind closed doors)

Gee, somebody it seems was already pissed off at us, they killed
Thousands of civilians in one day(lets go to Afghanistan, Pakistan)
Let’s drop the bomb. What’s world opinion then?

We have some great armchair hindsight Generals
On this forum, but I think they’ve been gargling
With Bong water.

Last edited by RFC; 10-25-2006 at 11:32 PM.
post #60 of 88 (permalink) Old 10-26-2006, 04:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Botnst
The strategy is the same and I stand by it.

The tactical side is in trouble, IMO. But then, I haven't thought they handled the tactical side well since they sent the regulars into Afghanistan. It should have remained in the hands of CIA & Special Forces, IMO. Iraq was just more of the same bad idea.

Now we are fighting an insurgency in a war of attrition in both countries. That's the way that insurgencies have traditionally been fought and it usually takes a decade or so of hard fighting to get it done.

Oh well. It gives all the folks who want to kill Americans a handy place to take their best shot. better there than here.

B
Yes, we all remember the success of our decade-long effort in Vietnam. As always, the trouble with you is that you see Iraq as some kind of homogenous society, where the bad elements will eventually give in. It is not, it is the spot on the map where three very large Kurdish, Sunni and Shiite camel noses are in the tent. You think ten years of swatting their noses while we bleed to death inside the tent is a "strategy". It is not.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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