The War in Iraq: Mass murder on an unimaginable scale by the Republican Party - Page 17 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #161 of 226 (permalink) Old 10-16-2006, 06:55 PM
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Waste it in war or waste it on welfare. Either way the gov't is good at one thing wasting the tax payers money.
So you can either put the money in stuff that kills 100,000-500,000 civilians with NO ROI or you can put the money to people who MIGHT do better and will at least churn the money back into the economy.

Good to see the economic skills are churning there.

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post #162 of 226 (permalink) Old 10-17-2006, 06:36 AM
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So you can either put the money in stuff that kills 100,000-500,000 civilians with NO ROI or you can put the money to people who MIGHT do better and will at least churn the money back into the economy.
Good to see the economic skills are churning there.
Do you mean something like The Great Society Scam that Johnson tried? That went far didn't it? Can you name some of the "Great Americans" we pulled from the ranks of poverty with that little ditty? What was the ROI on that pray tell?

"Negotiating with Obama is like playing chess with a pigeon, the pigeon knocks over all the pieces, on the board and then struts around like it won the game."
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post #163 of 226 (permalink) Old 10-17-2006, 09:03 AM
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Do you mean something like The Great Society Scam that Johnson tried? That went far didn't it? Can you name some of the "Great Americans" we pulled from the ranks of poverty with that little ditty? What was the ROI on that pray tell?
You mean the ten's of thousands of kids that went to land grant universities on scholarships from the 60's that would not otherwise have had the chance or would you be speaking of the jobs that it brought in to Appalachia for 35 years before NAFTA took them back out. During that time the standards of living rose to the point where welfare had the lowest percentage of recipients and growth in the communities was strong.

The booms in cities and their suburbs [such as Atlanta, Charlotte, Raleigh, Nashville, Cincinnati, Indianapolis, Columbus, Lexington and Knoxville [in my area] which have been flooded with 3500-6000 square foot McMansions over the past 25 years did not all come from the core towns from which they grew. Most of those people came from products of the Great Society of the 60’s, came to the Universities and tended to stay in those cities or got professional jobs in those cities.

I would be happy to provide the same cascade of McManionvilles for your area, given time to do the research. The difference is a NEW 3500 sqft house in Kentucky is $250K with $1200 yr Insurance and $1500 yr Taxes.

We could also talk about the successes of the Peace Corps which, until Bush pretty much destroyed it, built America’s reputation around the world as a Benevolent Giant, not a Cocaine and Scotch driven, Nation Building, Fundamentalism spreading Malevolent Giant.

Or we could talk about the Job Corps which trained many of today’s leaders. Check out their website for references.

There was also that change of equality that came about due to the Great Society where everyone was “suppose” to be treated equally. That is still a work in progress but really got some good traction there. Your wife most likely appreciates some of the work done for women during that Great Society era. It was not being done beforehand.

Not everything about the Great Society came out well. There are a tremendous number of people who just live on welfare. There are people who have just given up. There are people who just don’t care. That STILL has to be addressed. The Ostrich Approach will not work and killing them is somewhat Hitleresque. So, like it or not, Social programs STILL WILL NEED ADDRESSED. Sorry, fact of life. There is no way around it. The alternative is much, much worse.

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post #164 of 226 (permalink) Old 10-17-2006, 09:16 AM
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Do you mean something like The Great Society Scam that Johnson tried? That went far didn't it? Can you name some of the "Great Americans" we pulled from the ranks of poverty with that little ditty? What was the ROI on that pray tell?
Just a fast second note. I have relatives in Frederick MD and visit friends at MANG at Glen Martin ANG Base and at Annapolis and just got two emails back regarding your premise. I see all of the McMansions in your area and am pretty sure that at least some of those folks came out of the Appalachians when they got their degrees at Lehigh and Johns Hopkins and U. Maryland and Georgetown. If you look at some of the Appalachian Commission studies of propagation you will see that the DC area is one of the areas to where PROFESSIONALS migrated. So it would stand to reason, based on that study, that you are somewhat surrounded by “graduates” of the Great Society. With the multicultural blend of the DC society, I bet you can find more success stories than I can back here in “the sticks”.

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post #165 of 226 (permalink) Old 10-17-2006, 01:06 PM
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Just a fast second note. I have relatives in Frederick MD and visit friends at MANG at Glen Martin ANG Base and at Annapolis and just got two emails back regarding your premise. I see all of the McMansions in your area and am pretty sure that at least some of those folks came out of the Appalachians when they got their degrees at Lehigh and Johns Hopkins and U. Maryland and Georgetown. If you look at some of the Appalachian Commission studies of propagation you will see that the DC area is one of the areas to where PROFESSIONALS migrated. So it would stand to reason, based on that study, that you are somewhat surrounded by “graduates” of the Great Society.
With the multicultural blend of the DC society, I bet you can find more success stories than I can back here in “the sticks”.
I would be willing to bet that there were far more failures then successes in the overall view, and that things in fact did not work out quite as nicely as you have laid them out.
Were there some that were helped? I have no doubt of that, but in the long run many of those people would probably have done better then their contemporaries anyway. With what the "Great Society" cost, we would have been far better off if we had paid, in full, scholarships to Princeton, Harvard, and Yale, to the few that made it, it would have been far cheaper.

"Negotiating with Obama is like playing chess with a pigeon, the pigeon knocks over all the pieces, on the board and then struts around like it won the game."
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post #166 of 226 (permalink) Old 10-17-2006, 11:41 PM
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I would be willing to bet that there were far more failures then successes in the overall view, and that things in fact did not work out quite as nicely as you have laid them out.
Were there some that were helped? I have no doubt of that, but in the long run many of those people would probably have done better then their contemporaries anyway. With what the "Great Society" cost, we would have been far better off if we had paid, in full, scholarships to Princeton, Harvard, and Yale, to the few that made it, it would have been far cheaper.
I know that we will still be paying for poverty and education problems brought on by a myriad of reasons for the next generation or two if we start NOW. The problem has got to be addressed no matter what the party or who was or is to blame and the solutions are going to be expensive. That is an unfortunate fact of life. IF we ignore the problems, as we have for the past six years, we will continue to see a degradation of schools, more crime, more poverty, further propagation of the problem and a multiplication of a class war that has begun with the erosion of the middle class.

I don’t in any way like the concept of pouring money into a hole, nor do I like the concept of just handing money to someone who will spend it on crack or waste but until the problem is addressed, and a corrective measure is taken, the problems that we see, and many try to hide and avoid, will only amplify. That has been proven through history. There is no other solution than to assist in getting the system up and going.

The Great Society had some very lofty ideas, some worked, some did not. Some were highly successful and there are many educated people in this country because of some of those programs. There are also third generation welfare families. There are even some who are both. What we have not seen in the past six years is an alternative to a plan like New Deal or Great Society to jump start a society that has both very strong and very weak economies in parallel. That is a conundrum that was missing in New Deal but was very present in Great Society and worked with Great Society to help make it work. [Two of my economics courses at Cal Poly in the late 70’s were looking back at 10 years of the GS in California as an economic model].

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post #167 of 226 (permalink) Old 10-17-2006, 11:47 PM
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With what the "Great Society" cost, we would have been far better off if we had paid, in full, scholarships to Princeton, Harvard, and Yale, to the few that made it, it would have been far cheaper.
The hard Question: Who would get to cull the haves from the have nots for those few that made it, since we did not know which ones had yet made it?

And we would have been MUCH better off spending any monies at state universities. Ivy League schools are not what they are cracked up to be. They just get you better connections. I always preferred to hire skills over connections.

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post #168 of 226 (permalink) Old 10-18-2006, 06:05 AM
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I know that we will still be paying for poverty and education problems brought on by a myriad of reasons for the next generation or two if we start NOW. The problem has got to be addressed no matter what the party or who was or is to blame and the solutions are going to be expensive. That is an unfortunate fact of life. IF we ignore the problems, as we have for the past six years, we will continue to see a degradation of schools, more crime, more poverty, further propagation of the problem and a multiplication of a class war that has begun with the erosion of the middle class.

I don’t in any way like the concept of pouring money into a hole, nor do I like the concept of just handing money to someone who will spend it on crack or waste but until the problem is addressed, and a corrective measure is taken, the problems that we see, and many try to hide and avoid, will only amplify. That has been proven through history. There is no other solution than to assist in getting the system up and going.

The Great Society had some very lofty ideas, some worked, some did not. Some were highly successful and there are many educated people in this country because of some of those programs. There are also third generation welfare families. There are even some who are both. What we have not seen in the past six years is an alternative to a plan like New Deal or Great Society to jump start a society that has both very strong and very weak economies in parallel. That is a conundrum that was missing in New Deal but was very present in Great Society and worked with Great Society to help make it work. [Two of my economics courses at Cal Poly in the late 70’s were looking back at 10 years of the GS in California as an economic model].
It seems that you are very willing to blame everything on the last six years. The administration before had 8 years and did very little to change the situation. There may very well have been some successes, but it would seem as though the GS was considered a overall failure by the fairly biased liberal media.

"Negotiating with Obama is like playing chess with a pigeon, the pigeon knocks over all the pieces, on the board and then struts around like it won the game."
Vladimir Putin

"They have gun control in Cuba. They have universal health care in Cuba. So why do they want to come here?"
Paul Harvey 8/31/94


"The only people who have quick answers don't have the responsibility of making the decisions."
Justice Clarence Thomas
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post #169 of 226 (permalink) Old 10-20-2006, 10:49 PM
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I found this through my searches can't validate the autheticity but here it is, if true it does raise some questions to the report:


PajamasMedia: According to this report 14% of the 655,000 people died as a result of suicide bombers, which would be about 91,700 people. This is far greater than the media estimates and suicide attacks tend to be well-reported, as opposed to shooting or roadside bombings. Do you have any specific information about where these 97,000 people were killed?

Burnham: We did not report on suicide bombers.

PajamasMedia: Your study attributes a third or more than 200,000 would have died in air raids. That is more than Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined. And air raids have basically ceased in cities since 2003. Is it possible that your teams are counting something else aside from aerial bombardment in this category? If so, what would that be? Could it be a translation error?

Burnham: Overall, 13% of deaths were attributed to airstrikes, not 200,000. We reported what households said; the data were recorded in English, as all interviewers spoke English.

PajamasMedia: Historical comparisons might be helpful here. 650,000 violent deaths is about 150,000 more than the number of soldiers who died (violently and by disease) during the American Civil War, a conflict which involved a population larger than Iraq’s, and lasted a year than the current conflict has been going on. There is nothing in Iraq that looks like Shiloh, Antietam, Gettysburg, Cold Harbor, etc. What makes you believe that Iraq is deadlier than the American Civil War?

Burnham: What we are reporting is cumulative deaths over a 40 month period throughout an area of 26.1 million, not a 1-2 day battle field event.

PajamasMedia: Perhaps those interviewed related the number of deaths per extended family (and not “household”). If the researchers interviewed members of the same extended family (but who were not in the same household), then they might have double-counted. EXAMPLE: If I lost someone in my family on 9-11, but not in my household and a researcher asked me if I lost a family member on 9-11, I would answer yes – as would members of several households. All for the same solitary death. Aside from death certificates, how did you control for over-counting?


Here is the link: http://pajamasmedia.com/2006/10/jois...ncet_the_p.php

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post #170 of 226 (permalink) Old 10-21-2006, 08:48 AM
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It seems that you are very willing to blame everything on the last six years. The administration before had 8 years and did very little to change the situation. There may very well have been some successes, but it would seem as though the GS was considered a overall failure by the fairly biased liberal media.
I put most of the blame on the past 6 years, and the Reagan/Bush1 era which did much to deconstruct the elements of the GS.

The Clinton Administration did a few things to get it back, having grown up in the middle of the problem area, but not enough to gain traction before deconstruction began again.

If you do searches, depending upon which articles you pick, you will see both success and failures shown by the media. The primary failure, and I agree completely is generational welfare. It is a problem in both the inner cities and rural areas and MUST be addressed. Note that no one is trying to even touch the subject, nor have they which is very sad. The media is going to show bad over good, just as they show crashes over Eagle Scouts and the 20 corrupt congressmen over the 415 decent ones [most of the 20 just appear to be Republican at this point in time]. That too will change.

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