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post #131 of 161 (permalink) Old 10-09-2006, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FeelTheLove
I was actually speaking to mcBear. We should have done the same thing with North Korea and Cuba. If we had, they'd be making our sneakers right now.
I keep sticking my antenna in front of your transmitter. And I agree with you concerning Cuber. A waste of 40 years.

The SK's have been trying to get the NK's to play along, Clinton tried to get the NK's to play detente of some sort, Russia has tried, China has tried, Japan has tried, but none of it seems to work worth a damned.

The NK's are freaking weird.

Bot

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post #132 of 161 (permalink) Old 10-09-2006, 02:39 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by FeelTheLove
I was actually speaking to mcBear. We should have done the same thing with North Korea and Cuba. If we had, they'd be making our sneakers right now.
Nothing wrong with world trade as money IS the great pacifier. On the other hand, we have managed to lose a tremendous number of jobs to third world countries who support slave and prison labor [with which we can't compete] so that has a destablizing effect on our economy.

The hardest part of managing world trade [as opposed to absolute free market] is correcting trade inbalances brought on by slave/prison labor or just really cheap labor [2 bucks a day] against first tier countries who have higher standards of living [NA and EU] and are losing jobs due to cost cutting.

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post #133 of 161 (permalink) Old 10-09-2006, 03:36 PM
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Iif you're talking about total job numbers I disagree that we have lost jobs. I posted a couple of graphs to the effect somewhere or other on this site. Despite gaining millions of illegal workers we still have a growing job market and employment remains at record highs. New opportunities arise. We have the fastest growing of the industrialized western economies despite some huge hits in the past 8 years.

Adapt or get out of the way.

B

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post #134 of 161 (permalink) Old 10-09-2006, 05:11 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Botnst
Iif you're talking about total job numbers I disagree that we have lost jobs. I posted a couple of graphs to the effect somewhere or other on this site. Despite gaining millions of illegal workers we still have a growing job market and employment remains at record highs. New opportunities arise. We have the fastest growing of the industrialized western economies despite some huge hits in the past 8 years.

Adapt or get out of the way.

B
Bot, you are wrong about the booming jobs and employment does NOT remain at record highs. I saw the charts you posted and they do NOT reflect what you are trying to say. Let me try and explain this again. The number of WORKERS paying into the Social Security System is smaller than it has been in decades. The "gains" numbers you see touted by the administration are new jobs found by people who lost old jobs OR are getting second jobs OR are illegals who steal SSN cards and get a job for a period of time until the card comes back bogus and then they use a new stolen card to repeat.

Also, when someone is laid off or fired and collects unemployment, they are only counted in the system as "unemployed" for 26 weeks. After that they are just NOT COUNTED AT ALL. That makes the unemployment number go down. Does that make the number of people that are unemployed go down???? NO. Just the count.

The correct question to ask of the Department of Labor is how many people are paying into the system. Not how many "jobs" there are. You will find the numbers are much different.

So as for having to "Adapt or get out of the way", first, I have no clue what that is suppose to mean. But I would suggest you try looking at facts instead of trying to find charts that agree with a false premise. Maybe it is you that needs to adapt. Try adapting to the facts.

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post #135 of 161 (permalink) Old 10-09-2006, 06:05 PM
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The graphs were reported by BLS. If you think they're cooked by the administration, that's fine. Either produce evidence supporting the tampering or produce better graphs from a more objective and reliable source.

In those graphs were depicted the total numbers of non-farm employed. They did not address anything about churning in the employment market, just the straight totals.

If the total number of jobs increases at a rate greater than the expansion of the population, then you have a decrease in unemployment.

Unemployment has been at record lows for 10 years or so.

The US economy has been expanding faster than almost every other western economy.

Wages have been steadily increasing with inflation--stable income.

Those are the facts from BLS.

Other key features:
Fed payroll taxes have declined.
Despite the tax cuts, federal tax revenues are the highest in history.

--------------------------------

To me, the worst thing that this administration has done is to increase the federal debt. The way Administration after Administration, and Congress after Congress have indebted the future for political purposes today has been unconscionable. The second-worst thing this administration has done is expand socialized medicine into subsidizing drugs. The third worst thing they have done is abandoned SSI reform. Those were the reasons I voted Libertarian the last merry-go-round and why I'll vote Libertarian this November and in the next presidential election.

Bot
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post #136 of 161 (permalink) Old 10-09-2006, 06:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Botnst
The graphs were reported by BLS. If you think they're cooked by the administration, that's fine. Either produce evidence supporting the tampering or produce better graphs from a more objective and reliable source.

In those graphs were depicted the total numbers of non-farm employed. They did not address anything about churning in the employment market, just the straight totals.

If the total number of jobs increases at a rate greater than the expansion of the population, then you have a decrease in unemployment.

Unemployment has been at record lows for 10 years or so.

The US economy has been expanding faster than almost every other western economy.

Wages have been steadily increasing with inflation--stable income.

Those are the facts from BLS.

Other key features:
Fed payroll taxes have declined.
Despite the tax cuts, federal tax revenues are the highest in history.

--------------------------------

To me, the worst thing that this administration has done is to increase the federal debt. The way Administration after Administration, and Congress after Congress have indebted the future for political purposes today has been unconscionable. The second-worst thing this administration has done is expand socialized medicine into subsidizing drugs. The third worst thing they have done is abandoned SSI reform. Those were the reasons I voted Libertarian the last merry-go-round and why I'll vote Libertarian this November and in the next presidential election.

Bot
You are trying to talk sense to a guy who thinks publishing photo's of "flag draped coffins" to dis our president and our country is appropriate. You will never get him to face reality--or BLS statistics.

Don't believe everything you think
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post #137 of 161 (permalink) Old 10-09-2006, 06:26 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Botnst
The graphs were reported by BLS. If you think they're cooked by the administration, that's fine. Either produce evidence supporting the tampering or produce better graphs from a more objective and reliable source.

In those graphs were depicted the total numbers of non-farm employed. They did not address anything about churning in the employment market, just the straight totals.

If the total number of jobs increases at a rate greater than the expansion of the population, then you have a decrease in unemployment.

Unemployment has been at record lows for 10 years or so.

The US economy has been expanding faster than almost every other western economy.

Wages have been steadily increasing with inflation--stable income.

Those are the facts from BLS.

Other key features:
Fed payroll taxes have declined.
Despite the tax cuts, federal tax revenues are the highest in history.

--------------------------------

To me, the worst thing that this administration has done is to increase the federal debt. The way Administration after Administration, and Congress after Congress have indebted the future for political purposes today has been unconscionable. The second-worst thing this administration has done is expand socialized medicine into subsidizing drugs. The third worst thing they have done is abandoned SSI reform. Those were the reasons I voted Libertarian the last merry-go-round and why I'll vote Libertarian this November and in the next presidential election.

Bot
I will give you an example of BLS and "funny numbers". Look at their Mass Layoff figures for any given quarter and jibe them with numbers shown from Ford, IBM, Intel GE or when any other large company lays off 25000 or so that never show up on those charts. It has to do with how the numbers are listed, hourly vs. salary and stuff like that. Here are two clips that show some numbers from Challenger, Gray and Christmas who keeps up with this stuff on a more functional level that does not have a need to spin the numbers for political purposes.

I agree fully with you on expanding Federal Debt. Only Clinton reduced it in solid hard numbers [not intended as a political statement]. There has to be a way to stop spending the future as our grandchildren are getting swamped with debt and threats caused by them.

As for subsidizing drugs, I am of mixed feelings on that one. I know that government subsidizing leads to an extra tax burden but I also know that until there is a system that allows folks to have the necessary drugs to maintain health, there will be an economic chasm created by those who can afford to be healthy and those who cannot and that is fundamentally unfair and dangerous.

As for Social Security Reform, something will need done as the Boomer’s hit 67 and start drawing on what we have paid into the system since 1966. Since we actually paid into the system it is not an entitlement but rather an investment system and folks are not looking at it that way. Once the government got the money, it became theirs in their mind. Hard to get it back.

Anyway, here are two articles that point out some of the layoff numbers that show differences from the DoL numbers and point to references. Other references are splattered all over the net. I will dig through my links over the next bit.

http://money.cnn.com/2006/10/03/news...ion=2006100307

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/biztech...buzz060105.htm

McBear,
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post #138 of 161 (permalink) Old 10-09-2006, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Botnst
I keep sticking my antenna in front of your transmitter. And I agree with you concerning Cuber. A waste of 40 years.

The SK's have been trying to get the NK's to play along, Clinton tried to get the NK's to play detente of some sort, Russia has tried, China has tried, Japan has tried, but none of it seems to work worth a damned.

The NK's are freaking weird.

Bot
Actually, Clinton was making major headway with them by trying to understand their culture. The most important thing for Lil Kim is that he be seen as an equal to the US President. Bush, rather than trying to gain other things by granting this as Clinton did, rubs the little fucker's face in it, refusing to speak to him at all unless there is "six party talks", which NK thinks makes them look like a province of China. Bush I's Sec of State, Baker, has pleaded with Bush Jr to stop this nose wanking stupidity and simply talk to the guy. Bush has refused, and relations have deteriorated all thru his term as a result.

Last edited by FeelTheLove; 10-09-2006 at 08:47 PM.
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post #139 of 161 (permalink) Old 10-09-2006, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Botnst
Iif you're talking about total job numbers I disagree that we have lost jobs. I posted a couple of graphs to the effect somewhere or other on this site. Despite gaining millions of illegal workers we still have a growing job market and employment remains at record highs. New opportunities arise. We have the fastest growing of the industrialized western economies despite some huge hits in the past 8 years.

Adapt or get out of the way.

B
I disagree as well. The real problem is lack of technological innovation in the area of robotics due to the easy out we give industry in the form of illegals, as Bot points out. The end result is a decline in the quality, not quantity of jobs.
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post #140 of 161 (permalink) Old 10-10-2006, 06:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayhawk
You are trying to talk sense to a guy who thinks publishing photo's of "flag draped coffins" ...
I prefer freedom of speech to government suppression of those pictures, don't you?

B
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