What's at Stake in the November Elections? - Page 4 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #31 of 46 (permalink) Old 09-22-2006, 10:17 PM
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Well, Clinton sit on his ass when the attempted murder of over 3000 was done in 1993 at the World Trade Centers. Why wasn't action took THEN? They made their intentions known THEN. He sit on his ass when the Cole was attacked. He cut and run when soldiers were killed and desecrated in Somalia. Osama himself called the U.S. a 'paper tiger' and said that we are all fluff and bluff, but kill a couple of their guys and their stomach can't take it.
We need to ensure today that 9/11 never happens again and if we continue to pussy foot around, bitching about the so called rights of terrorist prisoners, it WILL happen again. What rights do you think THEY think we have?
I believe the problem then was that there was no PROOF that OBL was the person who drove the 93 attack that would hold up in COURT. They did prosecute the people they had evidence against.

As for cut and run, Clinton did not go blowing up sovereign nations due to the actions of rogue terrorists but we did capture the Cole bombers [who managed to escape from a Yemani prison a couple of years ago], we sent to prison the 93 WTC attackers, we captured the Lebanon Marine Barracks bombers. Did we cut off the head, NO. Should we have. YES. Did we have the Legal authority to do so NO. Tangled webs.

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post #32 of 46 (permalink) Old 09-22-2006, 10:18 PM Thread Starter
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Yet just two hours ago you posted:
which seems to be 180 degrees from what you just said in this post.

....
I don't see the contradiction, mcbear (welcome back by BTW).

What I said was that "liberal" and "conservative" labels were a convienent shorthand and that I had no problem with them as such per se.

What I find silly is someone attacking one's "conservative" bona fides merely because he fails to meet someone else's arbitrary litmus test of what a "true conservative" should be.

Incidentally I meant to point out that although it is common in some reactionary circles to deny someone's "conservatism" it is rare to hear someone being denied entry into the "libera'sl" elite circle because of a failure of ideolgical purity.
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post #33 of 46 (permalink) Old 09-22-2006, 10:25 PM Thread Starter
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I believe the problem then was that there was no PROOF that OBL was the person who drove the 93 attack that would hold up in COURT. They did prosecute the people they had evidence against.

As for cut and run, Clinton did not go blowing up sovereign nations due to the actions of rogue terrorists but we did capture the Cole bombers [who managed to escape from a Yemani prison a couple of years ago], we sent to prison the 93 WTC attackers, we captured the Lebanon Marine Barracks bombers. Did we cut off the head, NO. Should we have. YES. Did we have the Legal authority to do so NO. Tangled webs.
With regards to your first point I would say that that is precisely the danger we face when trying to apply American legal standards to a group of terrorists who do not deserve the full protections of the Bill of Rights as if they were citizens of this country. You want to fight a war on terrorists using the legal standard of "beyond a reasonable doubt?"

That's nuts.

Secondly what exactly do you mean when you say Clinton didn't bomb a "soverneign nation in response to a group of terrorists?"

What do you call that highly "successful" bombing of non-military targets such as the pharmaceutical plant in the Sudan?: http://www.salon.com/news/1998/09/23news.html
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post #34 of 46 (permalink) Old 09-22-2006, 10:29 PM
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First of all I'm unhappy over the fact that Bush has not vetoed a single spending bill during his presidency. Republican pork is just as noxious as Democratic pork.

Having said that a relatively small amount of the federal budget is "discretionary" spending. The bulk of it goes to national defence and entitlements. How much was added to our projected deficit from the Medicare Presciption drug coverage alone?

Secondly some economists question the significance of our current record high public debt. They say it should be looked at as a percentage of of our GDP and, by that criteria, is not out of line with historical standards.
Obviously Bush is not going to veto a budget that he submitted to Congress. He submits at the first of the year and then the "negotiating" begins. With both houses, there is not much negotiating. Stevens in Alaska gets $50M for a bridge to service 32 residents of an island because the ferry takes 11 minutes to ride, one of the KY congressmen got $1M for paving the boat ramp area for a Lake Cumberland marina as a "National Security" bill incase the County Sheriff has to unload the Zodiac quicker.

15% of ALL of our spending goes to servicing DEBT. That includes paying interest on Savings Bonds, Treasury Notes, etc. A Big chunck goes to China since they own $1.2Trillion of US Debt [13.33%]. Medicare and Medicaid get about 20% and the SSI gets about 20% [but that was PAID IN by participants]. DoD normally gets about 15% but with Iraq&Co. it is closer to 20%.

Some economists do like to put the National Debt in a "perspective model" but those tend to be policy economists who are trying to spin the numbers for a candidate or particular position and they normally blow off the key problem that it still has to be paid for and the GDP, at any level cannot absorb a $9Trillion Debt without serious economic echo.

McBear,
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post #35 of 46 (permalink) Old 09-22-2006, 10:36 PM
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What will be the incentive for capturing terrorists, now? We can't extract information from them by placing underwear on their heads, playing Red Hot Chile Peppers or other persuasive means. Would we just be better off shooting them all in the future and not fool with capture?
A terrorist's goal is to rule by fear, hence the meaning of terrorist. Their leaders are all cowards who prefer to persuade others, who are much less smarter than themselves, to blow themselves up. They reproduce by impressing extreme religious teachings into their spongy minds. They can not be reasoned with nor trusted.

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post #36 of 46 (permalink) Old 09-22-2006, 10:37 PM Thread Starter
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Obviously Bush is not going to veto a budget that he submitted to Congress. He submits at the first of the year and then the "negotiating" begins. With both houses, there is not much negotiating. Stevens in Alaska gets $50M for a bridge to service 32 residents of an island because the ferry takes 11 minutes to ride, one of the KY congressmen got $1M for paving the boat ramp area for a Lake Cumberland marina as a "National Security" bill incase the County Sheriff has to unload the Zodiac quicker.

15% of ALL of our spending goes to servicing DEBT. That includes paying interest on Savings Bonds, Treasury Notes, etc. A Big chunck goes to China since they own $1.2Trillion of US Debt [13.33%]. Medicare and Medicaid get about 20% and the SSI gets about 20% [but that was PAID IN by participants]. DoD normally gets about 15% but with Iraq&Co. it is closer to 20%.

Some economists do like to put the National Debt in a "perspective model" but those tend to be policy economists who are trying to spin the numbers for a candidate or particular position and they normally blow off the key problem that it still has to be paid for and the GDP, at any level cannot absorb a $9Trillion Debt without serious economic echo.
Hasn't the congress been tacking on spending bills above and beyond what the president requested? And hasn't he failed to veto these bills?
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post #37 of 46 (permalink) Old 09-22-2006, 10:38 PM
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Indeed it was Mehlman's contention that "Osama bin Laden himself said that the American withdrawal from Somalia emboldened his movement before 9/11."
I understand that logic that OBL could draw that conclusion and I remember that statement. That still is not a cause and effect that our piss poor performance in Somalia triggered 9/11. I am sure it did not help.

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post #38 of 46 (permalink) Old 09-22-2006, 10:45 PM
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If we want to reduce debt, the first thing we can do is to stop ALL foreign funding. We borrow against our country's economic reputation to send these unappreciative nations aid and in return, they spit in our face. Meanwhile, people are swooning at Chavez when he agrees to send heating oil for bargain basement prices. It's time we start getting a return for all that foreign aid or stop it.
BTW, the debt increases every time someone buys government bonds. If people want to reduce the debt, quit buying government savings bonds. They make up a significant portion of our national debt.

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post #39 of 46 (permalink) Old 09-22-2006, 10:47 PM
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Hasn't the congress been tacking on spending bills above and beyond what the president requested? And hasn't he failed to veto these bills?
It is such an incestuous cauldron when one party [either party] owns the keys to both houses and the WH that budget items get tacked on by executive request, executive order, Senate committee, House committee, Joint committee [which might explain a lot] and then there are the executive actions which can ‘annotate’ bills as they are signed.

All that I know is that if the housing bubble continues its current course and more $50K layoffs continue to be supplanted with the “10,000 New Jobs Created this month” [at WalMart @ $7.25 per hour] we are going to see a echo of 2000’s little stock market drop within the next couple of months.

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post #40 of 46 (permalink) Old 09-22-2006, 11:03 PM
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Incidentally I meant to point out that although it is common in some reactionary circles to deny someone's "conservatism" it is rare to hear someone being denied entry into the "libera'sl" elite circle because of a failure of ideolgical purity.
.

Oooh ooh, now you've treaded into a territory with which I'm fairly comfortable. Please ask me about ideological/traditional notions of left/liberal impurity/morality...please. I'll give you a hint though; think of charlatans like:

Joe Lieberman
Jane Harmon
Rahm Emanuel
Tom Lantos
Hillary Clinton

These fools have one basic problem; they're soft on fascism.
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