Is Chavez the new rightwing bogeyman for the ole Swift Boat? - Page 7 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #61 of 174 (permalink) Old 09-22-2006, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Bruce R.
This is what you said that started this bruhaha:

Now you are hand picking dates, but that's alright, different things happened at different times, and if you're not clear about what you say, you are open to criticism.
The war started long before 1965, and things were VERY different then. At that point in time you are right. Before 1965 you would be considered very wrong...... You cannot expect me to not take offense if I know for a fact that you are wrong.
Right, things were very different because that is generally not considered the same "Vietnam era" that I'm referring to.

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post #62 of 174 (permalink) Old 09-22-2006, 05:38 PM
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You're all caught up in why and when -- those things are secondary to my point -- if they matter at all. Again, my point is that the mentality toward the armed services in this country was very different during the Vietnam era (say 65 - 71) than it was during WWII, to which you said "I disagree". Your disagreement suggests that every red-blooded American wanted to enlist just like they did in WWII. I don't really care why, other than to say that the Vietnamese were not threatening our shores. I am certain that my parents did not fear a Vietnamese U-Boat attack.
I was around then, and spent my days at school on a US Army base. I don't recall any of the fathers of the kids I knew, from 1959 to 1971, expressing anything like an eagerness to leave their families and go. And I recall a number of the poor souls who, straight out of highschool signed up and were sent over only to come back fractured human beings, often addicted to hard narcotics, without a recognizable shard of their old personality apparent. No, I don't ever recall anyone being "for" the Vietnam war, just not against it. It was Nixon's "silent majority."

The American public got ugly when it turned against the war, and blamed the kids we sent over there for reports of war crimes and other atrocities. Somehow the slippery Gahan Wilson figures in Washington escaped being caned in public. This time, lets keep an eye on the reasons why our soldiers are in Iraq and honor them for going when we, falsely again, said we needed them to protect us. Our wrath should be turned to the fat asses that did nothing in the run up to Shock and Awe. And have done nothing of note since. Republicans as much as Democrats as there is no excuse that they can give up their oath of office as long as it is to support a President of the same party.

Jim
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post #63 of 174 (permalink) Old 09-22-2006, 05:49 PM
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Right, things were very different because that is generally not considered the same "Vietnam era" that I'm referring to.
Ron with some notable exceptions, I don't generally like getting into a pi$$ing contests. I did not enjoy getting into one with you. This is a very sensitive area for me because I lost some good friends over there. If you want to get into this
(and I am NOT suggesting this go on) be careful of the time criteria you use. The war was almost thirty years long, and a lot of things happened in that time span, far too much to characterize it in a few easy sentences. Too many good people on BOTH sides died, the same is happening now in Iraq and Afghanistan, and I don't like it, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't go again if I thought an old fart like me could do some good.

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post #64 of 174 (permalink) Old 09-22-2006, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by JimSmith
I was around then, and spent my days at school on a US Army base. I don't recall any of the fathers of the kids I knew, from 1959 to 1971, expressing anything like an eagerness to leave their families and go. And I recall a number of the poor souls who, straight out of highschool signed up and were sent over only to come back fractured human beings, often addicted to hard narcotics, without a recognizable shard of their old personality apparent. No, I don't ever recall anyone being "for" the Vietnam war, just not against it. It was Nixon's "silent majority."

Jim
Am I wrong to suggest that the engagement was considered fairly insignificant in this country until it escalated under Johnson around '65?

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post #65 of 174 (permalink) Old 09-22-2006, 05:59 PM
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I was around then, and spent my days at school on a US Army base. I don't recall any of the fathers of the kids I knew, from 1959 to 1971, expressing anything like an eagerness to leave their families and go. And I recall a number of the poor souls who, straight out of highschool signed up and were sent over only to come back fractured human beings, often addicted to hard narcotics, without a recognizable shard of their old personality apparent. No, I don't ever recall anyone being "for" the Vietnam war, just not against it. It was Nixon's "silent majority."
The only times I can recall (from reading about it, not being there, I'm not quite THAT old) people being excited about going to war was the very beginning of the Civil War and the "Great War" 1914 -1918. They were all hell bent to wipe out the other side and happy to do it......... Things changed real fast once the SHTF. Lose one battle and reality sets in..............

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post #66 of 174 (permalink) Old 09-22-2006, 06:05 PM
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Am I wrong to suggest that the engagement was considered fairly insignificant in this country until it escalated under Johnson around '65?
It started to get very interesting in August of 1964, right after the Gulf of Tonkin Incident.......... I believe that was the first turning point of the mid to later part of the war.

"Negotiating with Obama is like playing chess with a pigeon, the pigeon knocks over all the pieces, on the board and then struts around like it won the game."
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"They have gun control in Cuba. They have universal health care in Cuba. So why do they want to come here?"
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post #67 of 174 (permalink) Old 09-22-2006, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by GermanStar
Am I wrong to suggest that the engagement was considered fairly insignificant in this country until it escalated under Johnson around '65?
It generally went by unnoticed by the public at large in the early days, unless you were closely attached to the military. We were sending arms and advisors to help the South Vietnamese and it seemed pretty low key. On the base in Munich, Germany, it was not uncommon for some number men cycling out of Germany to do their next tour there and some to make a deal to leave their families in Munich and come back for another 3 years once their active duty assignment was over. Most of the fathers of the kids I was growing up with were professional Army. They were concerned with what they were hearing much earlier than the general public about drug abuse and about the definition of the mission and the gap between the enlisted men and the officers. All were ready to go if called, but none I knew were putting papers to go before someone drew their number. That doesn't mean it didn't happen, just that it was unlikely, given I lived there for 12 years and saw nearly every one come and go, at least once. The base in Munich was pretty small though, our school had a graduating Class in the 1960's and 1970's of under 125 so things might have been somewhat different in other, larger bases, or bases inside the US. Jim
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post #68 of 174 (permalink) Old 09-22-2006, 06:34 PM
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It started to get very interesting in August of 1964, right after the Gulf of Tonkin Incident.......... I believe that was the first turning point of the mid to later part of the war.
My father enlisted in the Air Force early in 1964 and was sent to Turkey. By the end of his enlistment, EVERYONE from his US home base was going to Vietnam. The war was raging and he was just completing his service.

My uncle did everything a person could do to get deferrels. Marriage. College. He finally had to go to Vietnam. He ended up re-enlisting. Became a career soldier and he retired as a full-bird army Colonol. He was one of those guys who insisted on carrying an M-16 as an officer.

I managed to "dodge" the draft bullet through the 80s and 90s when the Democrats and the media chanted at me every day about how I was going to be drafted and sent to <fill in the name of your favorite Central American country> At the hands of Reagan/Bush.

The left wailed about how Reagan was "making the Soviets hate us" and how we needed to unilaterally disarm to make them feel less nervous. They said we had lost all of the love and admiration of the world that we had under Carter. Europeans thought we were stupid cowboys because of Reagan. The USSR (crumbling from within we would later learn) sent sleeping bags to the homeless of New York. The media had a field day. Phil Donohue co-hosted a show with a Soviet "journalist" as though the guy was his moral equivalent.

Deja vu, baby. De ja vu.
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post #69 of 174 (permalink) Old 09-22-2006, 08:27 PM Thread Starter
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Kerry's military service was worth a mention, not an entire campaign. By making such an enormous deal of something decades old, he opened himself up to all of this crap. After all, Bush's history of winning elections doesn't even intersect the high road.
I think the big players in the Democratic Party thought Bush was unbeatable and sent Kerry up as a sacrificial lamb. In a way, it is amazing a guy so inept came within a few points of beating Bush. Gore was in a tough spot - if he ran and lost to Bush in 2004 it would kill his better shot in 2008. I think it was a very bad decision, because Gore would have been a much tougher candidate than Kerry and would have probably pulled it off. At this point, I think the Republicans actually have the better potential candidates for 2008, but they are anthema to the Koolaid Krowd. Guiliani or McCain would be tough for Gore to beat. If the Koolaid Krowd wins and nominates Frist or Macacca, Gore will win in a walk. A Gore-McCain match up would also probably favor Gore because McCain has worn thin. Guiliani, if he can get by the fascists, which I doubt, would give Mr. Gore a very,very hard time, and for one darn good reason - I'd probably vote for Guiliani over Gore, and if I would, he's in trouble.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #70 of 174 (permalink) Old 09-22-2006, 08:32 PM Thread Starter
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Jim, perhaps different campaign strategies are put in place in different parts of the country, but out here the Kerry TV spots that highlighted his military service absolutely dominated the airwaves for quite a stretch. "Head On - apply directly to the forehead, Head On - apply directly to the forehead, Head On - apply directly to the forehead" -- yeah, it was almost that bad.
I thought his "Reporting for duty!" line at the beginning of his nomination speech was the end of any chance he had for the presidency. He looked like a clown.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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