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post #51 of 106 (permalink) Old 09-19-2006, 04:44 PM
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That's right.

I think that there were many reasons why Bush wanted to invade Iraq. Having to pick a rallying point he chose WMD (which he believed to be true). Could he have sold the Amercian people on the myriad of other reasons?
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post #52 of 106 (permalink) Old 09-19-2006, 04:49 PM Thread Starter
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So then Bush is merely incompetant?

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #53 of 106 (permalink) Old 09-19-2006, 04:50 PM
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I believe that Bush's policies to remake the mideast will prevail.

History will have to be the final judge of that.

Patience is advised.
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post #54 of 106 (permalink) Old 09-19-2006, 05:24 PM Thread Starter
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Yes, we all lack the ability to see his invisible genius.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #55 of 106 (permalink) Old 09-19-2006, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by baby boo
No. What I have said in the past is that the Bush administration was primed to accept, what is now known to be, faulty intelligence because the decision to invade Iraq had already been made on other grounds. They looked for the reason they felt was most compelling and ran with it at the time. All along they had multiple reasons to invade Iraq. They thought (correctly) that the American people and congress would support a war based upon the threat of WMDs.
The basic characteristic of "being primed to accept" data without critically examining it because it supported a desire to take the nation's armed forces into another country to forcibly remove their leader for reasons that were not vetted by the Congress, is, first, incompetent and second, if done consciously, treasonous. The President is not anointed by God, he is elected and swears to serve at the will of the people according to United States Constitution. The Constitution of the United States makes no provisions for engaging in unprovoked invasions under a pretext that will sell to Congress.

I have made this point a number of times. We are NOT AT WAR. Congress declares war, and then, only then are we at war. We are presently in the middle of the gravest threat to the integrity of our nation, an undeclared war in which war powers are being gobbled up by the executive branch because the pinheads in the Legislative Branch are unable to stand up to the manipulation of the press and public opinion being orchestrated by the executive branch.

Now, I have no real idea why anyone, any American that is, would do this. I can only imagine, and at times I think we are dealing with an error of judgement that has snowballed out of control. The only thing this Whitehouse seems to have figured out is how to use the daily events they have precipitated by their incompetence or treason, to divert us from examining their actual motives and assessing the streak of failures to perform as exactly that, failures, utter and complete failures.

Go live in Germany for a while, and get to know some old timers. You don't have much time left though, but they will let you know their horror did not start as a declared intention to exterminate Jews, and then invade Germany's neighbors unprovoked. It was all done in baby boo like steps, all well justified with suitable public relations campaigns and so on, with no public debate of motives and methods. All "secret" for the security of the homeland. With a very visible German version of "you are either with us or against us" tone.

The absence of doubt in the righteousness and "Ueberallesness" of the undefined objectives and threats to be confronted and vanquished, the undefined, undebated and nowhere apparent actual strategy, the unestimated cost of American lives, and the equally unestimated and unbudgeted financial cost of your war is most alarming. It has no end, no American public support of a specific battle plan, no Congressionally debated and authorized objectives anyone could measure progress against. Yet you support it without question. You are scary.

I hope I am wrong about the path we seem to be on, and I wonder about it routinely. The latest revelations on outsourced torture camps is just another data point. The pattern is becoming hard to ignore, unless you are a heel clicking convert to this new, never before openly debated and accepted form of clandestine governing followed by unrelented chanting of the released message to the people from every communications outlet available. It is not my America though and I am very concerned. Jim
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post #56 of 106 (permalink) Old 09-19-2006, 09:24 PM
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The basic characteristic of "being primed to accept" data without critically examining it because it supported a desire to take the nation's armed forces into another country to forcibly remove their leader for reasons that were not vetted by the Congress, is, first, incompetent and second, if done consciously, treasonous. The President is not anointed by God, he is elected and swears to serve at the will of the people according to United States Constitution. The Constitution of the United States makes no provisions for engaging in unprovoked invasions under a pretext that will sell to Congress.

I have made this point a number of times. We are NOT AT WAR. Congress declares war, and then, only then are we at war. We are presently in the middle of the gravest threat to the integrity of our nation, an undeclared war in which war powers are being gobbled up by the executive branch because the pinheads in the Legislative Branch are unable to stand up to the manipulation of the press and public opinion being orchestrated by the executive branch.

Now, I have no real idea why anyone, any American that is, would do this. I can only imagine, and at times I think we are dealing with an error of judgement that has snowballed out of control. The only thing this Whitehouse seems to have figured out is how to use the daily events they have precipitated by their incompetence or treason, to divert us from examining their actual motives and assessing the streak of failures to perform as exactly that, failures, utter and complete failures.

Go live in Germany for a while, and get to know some old timers. You don't have much time left though, but they will let you know their horror did not start as a declared intention to exterminate Jews, and then invade Germany's neighbors unprovoked. It was all done in baby boo like steps, all well justified with suitable public relations campaigns and so on, with no public debate of motives and methods. All "secret" for the security of the homeland. With a very visible German version of "you are either with us or against us" tone.

The absence of doubt in the righteousness and "Ueberallesness" of the undefined objectives and threats to be confronted and vanquished, the undefined, undebated and nowhere apparent actual strategy, the unestimated cost of American lives, and the equally unestimated and unbudgeted financial cost of your war is most alarming. It has no end, no American public support of a specific battle plan, no Congressionally debated and authorized objectives anyone could measure progress against. Yet you support it without question. You are scary.

I hope I am wrong about the path we seem to be on, and I wonder about it routinely. The latest revelations on outsourced torture camps is just another data point. The pattern is becoming hard to ignore, unless you are a heel clicking convert to this new, never before openly debated and accepted form of clandestine governing followed by unrelented chanting of the released message to the people from every communications outlet available. It is not my America though and I am very concerned. Jim
I believe that America (and the West) are facing an existential threat from radical Islam. I also believe that there are seemingly well intentioned people, such as yourself, who appear to be willfully blind to the danger this represents to western civilization. The struggle wil be, at once, to convince Americans of this threat and to defeat the barbarians at our gates.

The radical Islamists have made their intentions clear. From Bali to Chechnya, to our embassies in Africa, to our ships docked in Yemen. From the marine barracks in Lebanon to the World Trade Center in NYC. From London to Madrid and a thousand points in between. From the genocide of Bengalis and Hindus during Bangldesh's war of independence to the current massacres in Darfur. Out of 600 active conflicts worldwide that are currently ongoing 90% are due to muslim extremists.

Bot's artcle (posted in another thread) summarizes the dangers well:

...liberalism has grown dangerously out of touch with the realities of our world — specifically with what devout Muslims actually believe about the West, about paradise and about the ultimate ascendance of their faith.

On questions of national security, I am now as wary of my fellow liberals as I am of the religious demagogues on the Christian right.

This may seem like frank acquiescence to the charge that "liberals are soft on terrorism." It is, and they are.

A cult of death is forming in the Muslim world — for reasons that are perfectly explicable in terms of the Islamic doctrines of martyrdom and jihad. The truth is that we are not fighting a "war on terror." We are fighting a pestilential theology and a longing for paradise. ....

...despite abundant evidence to the contrary, liberals continue to imagine that Muslim terrorism springs from economic despair, lack of education and American militarism ....

Such an astonishing eruption of masochistic unreason could well mark the decline of liberalism, if not the decline of Western civilization
....
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post #57 of 106 (permalink) Old 09-19-2006, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by baby boo
I believe that America (and the West) are facing an existential threat from radical Islam. I also believe that there are seemingly well intentioned people, such as yourself, who appear to be willfully blind to the danger this represents to western civilization. The struggle wil be, at once, to convince Americans of this threat and to defeat the barbarians at our gates.

The radical Islamists have made their intentions clear. From Bali to Chechnya, to our embassies in Africa, to our ships docked in Yemen. From the marine barracks in Lebanon to the World Trade Center in NYC. From London to Madrid and a thousand points in between. From the genocide of Bengalis and Hindus during Bangldesh's war of independence to the current massacres in Darfur. Out of 600 active conflicts worldwide that are currently ongoing 90% are due to muslim extremists.

Bot's artcle (posted in another thread) summarizes the dangers well:

...liberalism has grown dangerously out of touch with the realities of our world — specifically with what devout Muslims actually believe about the West, about paradise and about the ultimate ascendance of their faith.

On questions of national security, I am now as wary of my fellow liberals as I am of the religious demagogues on the Christian right.

This may seem like frank acquiescence to the charge that "liberals are soft on terrorism." It is, and they are.

A cult of death is forming in the Muslim world — for reasons that are perfectly explicable in terms of the Islamic doctrines of martyrdom and jihad. The truth is that we are not fighting a "war on terror." We are fighting a pestilential theology and a longing for paradise. ....

...despite abundant evidence to the contrary, liberals continue to imagine that Muslim terrorism springs from economic despair, lack of education and American militarism ....

Such an astonishing eruption of masochistic unreason could well mark the decline of liberalism, if not the decline of Western civilization
....
You don't get it. I am not a particularly sympathetic guy to anyone's cause. I find your "Israel Ueber Alles" cause nearly as offensive as the Muslim "we hate you and want to kill you" cause. Neither does anything of value for America. I am an America first guy. You would like to paint me "liberal" and stop thinking, which you are marvelous at doing.

I do not necessarily disagree that there is a threat, and that it is serious. I just VEHEMENTLY disagree that to face that threat we have no choice but to give up our beloved America without debate and understanding, what are we giving up, for how long and what is definition of the circumstances when we get America back. If we cannot preserve America in our struggle to survive this and any other threat, well, first we should nuke 'em because that is what we really do well, and, then, well, it depends. I am not sure just because the eventual ruler came from what used to be America we can trust that he or she will preserve our way of life. Or even be better than the enemy. Bad shit we do is still bad shit. And we have proven we can do bad shit.

I am not belittling the threat you see. I do believe that until it warrants a Nuclear Response, we should treat it like the flyshit we really think it is. Because when the Russians were the bad guys we were surely ready to push the button at a moment's notice. They surely weren't flyshit because if they came we were going to nuke 'em. We knew it and they knew it, and we knew they knew it. Well, in my mind, this is no different. When it gets that bad send them nukes to get the message across. In the mean time, don't let Americans die over flyshit. And whatever you do, don't engage an enemy on his terms. Our terms and our terms only. Until we develop a military that can do the bulshit job of nation building, we should stick to making rubble. Radioactive rubble. And only when there really is no other choice. Otherwise don't get worked up if the situation is really flyshit. Jim
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post #58 of 106 (permalink) Old 09-19-2006, 10:44 PM
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I believe that Bush's policies to remake the mideast will prevail.

History will have to be the final judge of that.

Patience is advised.
So is monetary servitude to the ever growing US gov't.
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post #59 of 106 (permalink) Old 09-19-2006, 10:47 PM
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So is monetary servitude to the ever growing US gov't.
Here's a solution that might meet with even your approval:
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post #60 of 106 (permalink) Old 09-19-2006, 11:09 PM
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I understand...

Last edited by Shane; 12-06-2009 at 10:04 PM.
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