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post #31 of 64 (permalink) Old 08-28-2006, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Shane
Why are we even trying to categorize a group of people like this? This is stupid.
It is just fun to categorize by:

Old Farts: Those who were born between 1910 and 1945 who lived through the depression, WW2 and the start of the biggest Growth in the World.

Biggest Fn Generation the World Has Known: Us, apparently the reason all the cool stuff was made. We took the developments of the Old Farts and made them cool. Computers, TV's, Medical advances. We have always been told we were the smartest generation and could do anything and everything we wanted [not always true, but it sounded good]. Laughed at the Old Farts because they did everything so slow and were so dumb [not always true, but it sounded good].

XYZippies: You know who you are. Always told you are the smartest generation and can do anything you want to do [not always true, but it makes you feel better]. You laugh at the Boomers because we appear slow and dumb [but we are as smart as you [and we have experience]]. You will get to take all the cool stuff we invented and make it better. You will also get to take care of us, both as your parents and grandparents and as the LARGEST retired population that the World has known. We will be watching, and most likely laughing. It's what we do.

Can you think of a more fun way to categorize?

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post #32 of 64 (permalink) Old 08-28-2006, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by mcbear
We are only as good as we treat those that have the least among us.
Right...I'm a middle-class white american male, so naturally, I'm the bad guy. It doesn't matter that when I had nothing, nobody "gave" me anything. It doesn't matter that I've made something of my life on my own. It doesn't matter that there's nothing special about me except for my drive and desire.

No....what matters is that I don't think listless degenerates without any sort of motivation should be "given to" with no strings attached. That's what matters. I embody the heartless right-wing conservatives that ostensibly will drive the country to ruin. I oppose programs like welfare that operate devoid of any accountability, making me the guy who is PERSONALLY taking a shit on "those that have the least among us". We whiteys, as a culture, are just a bunch of cruel, mean, elitist assholes.

PREACH ON!!!

Mac, you know that I respect you and that I enjoy engaging in discussions where we disagree. I don't find anything "libertarian" about the viewpoint that society is only as good as it treats the poorest among us. That is the siren song of bleeding heart liberalism. Liberalism doesn't work. If it did, we'd have whipped poverty about 20 years ago - we've poured billions and billions into programs that "give people fish", which simultaneously robs them of both the means and incentive to "fish for themselves", and we've held no-one accountable for the failures of these programs to reach their objectives.

If you're in fact over 50, then you're at least 20-years past the age where such convictions are meritorious.
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post #33 of 64 (permalink) Old 08-28-2006, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by mcbear
..... You will also get to take care of us, both as your parents and grandparents and as the LARGEST retired population that the World has known. We will be watching, and most likely laughing.....
The joke will ultimately be on retirees as there will not be enough workers to sustain their social security retirement benefits. Over the past few decades fewer and fewer active workers are supporting a growing population of retirees. And that means this ponzi scheme, known as Social Security will soon come to an end under the weight of its own inefficiency and incompetence.

Anyone who has not planned for a retirement independant of Social Security is a fool....
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post #34 of 64 (permalink) Old 08-28-2006, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by QBNCGAR
Right...I'm a middle-class white american male, so naturally, I'm the bad guy. It doesn't matter that when I had nothing, nobody "gave" me anything. It doesn't matter that I've made something of my life on my own. It doesn't matter that there's nothing special about me except for my drive and desire.

No....what matters is that I don't think listless degenerates without any sort of motivation should be "given to" with no strings attached. That's what matters. I embody the heartless right-wing conservatives that ostensibly will drive the country to ruin. I oppose programs like welfare that operate devoid of any accountability, making me the guy who is PERSONALLY taking a shit on "those that have the least among us". We whiteys, as a culture, are just a bunch of cruel, mean, elitist assholes.

PREACH ON!!!

Mac, you know that I respect you and that I enjoy engaging in discussions where we disagree. I don't find anything "libertarian" about the viewpoint that society is only as good as it treats the poorest among us. That is the siren song of bleeding heart liberalism. Liberalism doesn't work. If it did, we'd have whipped poverty about 20 years ago - we've poured billions and billions into programs that "give people fish", which simultaneously robs them of both the means and incentive to "fish for themselves", and we've held no-one accountable for the failures of these programs to reach their objectives.

If you're in fact over 50, then you're at least 20-years past the age where such convictions are meritorious.
I agree that you don't just pour good money after bad. I guess that I see programs that do "teach a man to fish..." and see good come from them and know that it can be done. One of the reasons that we have not "whipped poverty after pouring billions and billions into programs has been in some respects that it has been PROGRAMS that have been sent and not HELP. By that I mean that it is easy to take advantage of a program [I know businessmen who take advantage of tax breaks and get bigger cars/trucks than they normally would because they CAN under the program] where it is harder to take advantage of "one on one" or "one on several" help. It is easy for a person or government to write a check. It is harder to roll up the sleeves and help. I would prefer, and have fought for years to get, an incentive where volunteers go to areas and help by teaching budget, home ec, vocational ed, reading, etc to folks that need that and then get a "credit" on their taxes for that. That would provide real incentive for people to roll up their sleeves and help others, even a few hours a month. And no "real" money is spent.

Thinking more globally, "We are only as good as we treat those that have the least among us". A 59 year old friend of mine died in the plane crash yesterday. He was a Porsche guy but also an International Board of Director for Habitat for Humanity. He has traveled to 25 countries building houses and cleaning up damage. He was in Indonesia after the Tidal Wave and spent the last two months in La and Ms building housing after Katrina. He was flying back to Gulfport yesterday morning.

We tend to look at those who have little or nothing as being lazy or just not wanting to try or at some point in their life having made a bad decision. Or, we say that when we were down we did not get a handout so why should they. Both opinions deserve looks.

Some people are just lazy, some just gave up. That does happen. IN MY OPINION, it does not stop us from being the best person that we can be and I strongly believe that we are only as good as we treat those that have the least among us, both personally and as a society. That is how every society in history has been judged.

I know that my convictions won't get me metals. I got them when I was young. Now I have my convictions just for me. I find that much more rewarding.

McBear,
Kentucky

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post #35 of 64 (permalink) Old 08-28-2006, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by baby boo
The joke will ultimately be on retirees as there will not be enough workers to sustain their social security retirement benefits. Over the past few decades fewer and fewer active workers are supporting a growing population of retirees. And that means this ponzi scheme, known as Social Security will soon come to an end under the weight of its own inefficiency and incompetence.

Anyone who has not planned for a retirement independant of Social Security is a fool....
This is why I have planned my retirement to not expect anything from the government, SSI or my Mil Retirement. I have seen the XYZippies work in a professional environment and it scares me. I don't expect anything from them.

The bad part is if the XYZippies don't man up and provide a net for the boomers, the boomers will have to spend all their money to live which will leave NOTHING for the XYZippies in their wills. Ouch.

McBear,
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post #36 of 64 (permalink) Old 08-28-2006, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by starcar126
We "boomers" overcompensated because we felt we were
breaking free from previous super Conservative generations before us that we felt did not represent us at the time.
...

As the pendulum swings, this country went from extreme right to extreme leftist views in the 60s and has swung less and less in the 70s, 80s, and 90s, stabilizing until now. There seems to be another move (swing) towards liberal thinking taking place right now.
Kids typically rebel from their parents at some stage - 180 degrees. Most of them get over it because it's a phase of adolescence. What's unfortunate is when that phase is entered in such a way (or at such an age) that natural maturity never takes place - suddenly, half-baked adolescent ideals seem like great ideas for a lifetime.

I'm not sure what the "boomers" expected of their offspring, quite frankly...theirs is a generation that literally resulted from an immense and suddent resumption of carnal activity following a WORLD WAR induced dry-spell. Rabbits the world over were looking at humans and saying "For Chrissake!! Slllooowww doooowwwnn!!". As stuck up as my generation is likely to be, there's no doubt that the coming generations will be much more liberal. They'll eventually figure out that communism has been universally proven as innefective, and come back around to the center again.

Although the round trip will probably kill me...
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post #37 of 64 (permalink) Old 08-28-2006, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by mcbear
...

The bad part is if the XYZippies don't man up and provide a net for the boomers, the boomers will have to spend all their money to live which will leave NOTHING for the XYZippies in their wills. Ouch.
This has a parallel in the current energy crunch. I.e., the concept of diminishing returns. The higher the price of oil the more likely it is to generate a recession which will reduce energy demands etc. So there is a limit to how high a price OPEC can charge for its oil. It can't set the price at $200 a barrel unilaterally without ultimately sharply reducing demand and thus their profits.

So, too, you can only tax working people so much before they say the heck with it and make gainful employment "unprofitable." If you try to extract the promise of social security from people who simply cannot fund it you will accomplish nothing but actually reduce government revenues.

I like to think of of revenues as being shaped like an inverted U. It's a classic max/min problem we learned in beginning calculus. At a zero tax rate government revenue is 0. At 100% tax rate government revenue is also 0 because there is no incentive to work. At some point, in between, we have optimal government revenue that can be used to fund necessary government services whether it be defense, infrastructure, health care or social security.

Economics repeatedly teaches us that overall government revenues are actually greater at lower tax rates....to a point....

Last edited by baby boo; 08-28-2006 at 03:37 PM.
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post #38 of 64 (permalink) Old 08-28-2006, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by QBNCGAR
Kids typically rebel from their parents at some stage - 180 degrees. Most of them get over it because it's a phase of adolescence. What's unfortunate is when that phase is entered in such a way (or at such an age) that natural maturity never takes place - suddenly, half-baked adolescent ideals seem like great ideas for a lifetime.

I'm not sure what the "boomers" expected of their offspring, quite frankly...theirs is a generation that literally resulted from an immense and suddent resumption of carnal activity following a WORLD WAR induced dry-spell. Rabbits the world over were looking at humans and saying "For Chrissake!! Slllooowww doooowwwnn!!". As stuck up as my generation is likely to be, there's no doubt that the coming generations will be much more liberal. They'll eventually figure out that communism has been universally proven as innefective, and come back around to the center again.

Although the round trip will probably kill me...
I think you are making the assumption that the pendulum was all the way to the left in the 60's. It really didn't swing all that far left in the 60's otherwise Nixon would not have been elected to two terms. There was a very liberal component in the 60's as far as the War on Poverty but that was absolutely necessary. There were hundreds of thousands of people in Appalachia, the South and SouthWest that still had outdoor plumbing and little or no education because the public education system just did not exist to a degree necessary to educate. That was as late as 68-70.

The swing to the Right, which started in 79 and has just peaked has been much more long lived and drastic than any of the "hippy liberal" 60's. I will agree that when that group that did drugs did it, they excelled beyond expectation. That was, in my view the worst of our generation. Well beyond the sex part but then again, I liked the sex part. Alot.

The trick will be to not have the pendulum swing all the way to the left, no one needs that. In fact, the closer it stays to the center, the better it will be for both sides of the political spectrum. That should be the goal. Get both sides working on the same problems instead of against each other.

McBear,
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post #39 of 64 (permalink) Old 08-28-2006, 06:30 PM
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This has a parallel in the current energy crunch. I.e., the concept of diminishing returns. The higher the price of oil the more likely it is to generate a recession which will reduce energy demands etc. So there is a limit to how high a price OPEC can charge for its oil. It can't set the price at $200 a barrel unilaterally without ultimately sharply reducing demand and thus their profits.

So, too, you can only tax working people so much before they say the heck with it and make gainful employment "unprofitable." If you try to extract the promise of social security from people who simply cannot fund it you will accomplish nothing but actually reduce government revenues.

I like to think of of revenues as being shaped like an inverted U. It's a classic max/min problem we learned in beginning calculus. At a zero tax rate government revenue is 0. At 100% tax rate government revenue is also 0 because there is no incentive to work. At some point, in between, we have optimal government revenue that can be used to fund necessary government services whether it be defense, infrastructure, health care or social security.

Economics repeatedly teaches us that overall government revenues are actually greater at lower tax rates....to a point....
Give the man a cigar. That is the correct economic model. Now the really hard part is figuring what that point is for taxpayers. A flat tax is hard on the poor and easy on the affluent. A gradiant system is equally fair on everyone but the affluent pay more actual dollars. A sales tax system punishes the poor because both they and the rich have to buy the same basics yet it takes much less percentage of the riches money and can overwhelm the poor.

People making good amounts of money always have one view and those making little money have another. Best way to determine the optimal method would be to get a team of foreign economists with no skin in the game to set up a tax system that accurately answers the economic and fairness questions and vote the system up or down with no amendments. What are the chances of that?

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post #40 of 64 (permalink) Old 08-29-2006, 10:48 AM
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The US, having apx. 5% of the Worlds population, spends as much on the military as the rest of the World combined. Yet it's the only 1th World industrialized Country without a national health plan. Does that sound right?
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