Judge in NSA case in ACLU's pocket? - Page 7 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #61 of 116 (permalink) Old 08-26-2006, 05:03 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Botnst
Laws are, by their nature, an imposition of beliefs. They are the codification of morals.

Thus, to understand the application of law one must have a common moral basis from which to draw and a philosophy that guides that implementation.

To suggest that a judge who is bereft of a moral philosophy is the pinnacle is to be judged by a psychopath.

Your bumper is bigger than mine.

B
You are reading things that are not in my post.

I clearly stated that a judge is more than the sum of his legal education and learning. I have never suggested that a judge ought to be devoid of morals or ethics or philosophy. That would be, well, insane.

What I have suggested and many have also suggested is that a judge's legal decisions should not be imbued with the judge's own philosphical bents and world view.

In our system of laws, laws reflect the consensus of those who are governed. that is why we elect legislators to enact laws. So I disagree with you that laws are a reflection of a moral system. If that were the case, then the morality of the majority would be imposed on the minority (not speaking of ethnic minorities here). That result would be odious.

Laws are more of a reflection of what the governed think is right and wrong. Thus "thou shall not murder" may be one of the commandments in the Judeo-Christian system, but it found its way into our law books because society as a whole thinks that murder is wrong.

For a review of the history of law, language and ethics, and how all of these factors interplay in the enactment and interpretation of "the law" may I suggested Christopher Stone's book LAW LANGUAGE AND EHTICS. Chris Stone is a law professor and the son of I.F. (Izzy) Stone.

It is a textbook, but it makes for some very interesting reading nevertheless.

Bot, I've taken the time to read your posts here and in MercedesShop. I don't really think that you want activist judge legislating from the bench and imposing their morality on you. You are too much of, well, an anarchist, to go for that.

I accept the comment that my bumper is bigger as a compliment. :-)
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post #62 of 116 (permalink) Old 08-26-2006, 05:58 PM
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Unfortunetly many of them think:
( 1 ) They ARE the law
( 2 ) They can do anything they damn well please.

Looks to me like this dippy broad thinks she can follow both one and two as outlined above....
So she is not constrained by appeal?
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post #63 of 116 (permalink) Old 08-26-2006, 06:04 PM
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To me, membership is not the issue.

Failure to disclose membership IS an issue.

I don't care if a judge is a member of Nambla, just so long as we all know it going into pretrial. Then we can make motions if we feel so moved.

Okay, I do care if a judge is a member of Nambla.

Brings an interesting question: where would I draw the boundary?

I don't know, but I do believe a blanket prohibition against political affiliation is worse than no retrisctions. A judge that has no connection to society would be weird and even scary.

B
The litigants are free to appeal this issue. If they think she did not disclose this properly, they have grounds to ask that the case be retried by a different judge. Personally I doubt this will fly, since the right wing tends to tell a lot of lies in this country, and they are probably lying about this as well, since given the nature of this organization I am sure it is part of her C.V. or her resume. This isn't some stock fund or murky political committee, it is some community service organization that educates ill-served communities on voter rights and such. I doubt it is some Black Helicopter conspiracy to hide her terrorist, un-American connections to the dreaded ACLU.
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post #64 of 116 (permalink) Old 08-26-2006, 06:08 PM Thread Starter
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So she is not constrained by appeal?
Appeals are expensive and time consuming.

In the meantime, the damage is done.
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post #65 of 116 (permalink) Old 08-26-2006, 06:13 PM Thread Starter
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The litigants are free to appeal this issue. If they think she did not disclose this properly, they have grounds to ask that the case be retried by a different judge. Personally I doubt this will fly, since the right wing tends to tell a lot of lies in this country, and they are probably lying about this as well, since given the nature of this organization I am sure it is part of her C.V. or her resume. This isn't some stock fund or murky political committee, it is some community service organization that educates ill-served communities on voter rights and such. I doubt it is some Black Helicopter conspiracy to hide her terrorist, un-American connections to the dreaded ACLU.
I am surprised by the depth and width of your hatred for the Bush administration and how that hatred corrupts the reasoning abilities of what otherwise appears to be a fine mind.

If you really think that the right wing "made up" the judge's affiliation with groups well-connected and intimate with the ACLU, then there is no point in discussing the issue further.

Next time a "right wing" activist judge rules against one of your pet causes, thus goring your ox, don't cry foul. At least have the intellectual honesty to accept that what is sauce for the goose is also sauce for the gander.

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post #66 of 116 (permalink) Old 08-26-2006, 06:30 PM
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Appeals are expensive and time consuming.

In the meantime, the damage is done.
The appellant in this case is the US Government, you know, the guys who are supposed to be the representatives of The People of The United States, who are arguing in this case that the Bill of Rights does not apply to The People of The United States, you know, those guys. You think they are going to run out of money on this really soon?
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post #67 of 116 (permalink) Old 08-26-2006, 06:32 PM
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I am surprised by the depth and width of your hatred for the Bush administration and how that hatred corrupts the reasoning abilities of what otherwise appears to be a fine mind.

If you really think that the right wing "made up" the judge's affiliation with groups well-connected and intimate with the ACLU, then there is no point in discussing the issue further.

Next time a "right wing" activist judge rules against one of your pet causes, thus goring your ox, don't cry foul. At least have the intellectual honesty to accept that what is sauce for the goose is also sauce for the gander.
I think the right wing made up the fact she "hid" this. I bet it is public knowledge. If there was any merit to it, the Bush admin would have slapped a motion in so fast your rightwing little head would have spun around like a top. It's like all the other crap you guys post, just Newsmax bullshit that never seems to end up going anywhere, produced for the Koolaid Klowns. and yes, I hate Bush - I hate all people who murder little kids in their beds for fucking oil.
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post #68 of 116 (permalink) Old 08-26-2006, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by 67_250SE
You are reading things that are not in my post.

I clearly stated that a judge is more than the sum of his legal education and learning. I have never suggested that a judge ought to be devoid of morals or ethics or philosophy. That would be, well, insane.

What I have suggested and many have also suggested is that a judge's legal decisions should not be imbued with the judge's own philosphical bents and world view.

In our system of laws, laws reflect the consensus of those who are governed. that is why we elect legislators to enact laws. So I disagree with you that laws are a reflection of a moral system. If that were the case, then the morality of the majority would be imposed on the minority (not speaking of ethnic minorities here). That result would be odious.

Laws are more of a reflection of what the governed think is right and wrong. Thus "thou shall not murder" may be one of the commandments in the Judeo-Christian system, but it found its way into our law books because society as a whole thinks that murder is wrong.

For a review of the history of law, language and ethics, and how all of these factors interplay in the enactment and interpretation of "the law" may I suggested Christopher Stone's book LAW LANGUAGE AND EHTICS. Chris Stone is a law professor and the son of I.F. (Izzy) Stone.

It is a textbook, but it makes for some very interesting reading nevertheless.

Bot, I've taken the time to read your posts here and in MercedesShop. I don't really think that you want activist judge legislating from the bench and imposing their morality on you. You are too much of, well, an anarchist, to go for that.

I accept the comment that my bumper is bigger as a compliment. :-)
The bumper-thing--you said I write thinsg for bumper stickers (or some such). When I read what you were referring to I realized you bumper sticker would have to be huge.

We may actually be pretty close on this and it maybe simply a definitional difference. let's keep at it and find out.


Concerning morals, I would argue that morals in a perfect culture make laws unnecessary. Laws are necessary when morality fails. Thus, a society that in the majority believes monogamy is moral and in the minority that polygamy is immoral the majority will impose it's moral code on the minority. If the force of comity fails then laws will be enacted enforcing monogamy.

Or take feticide. In a low-density culture that requires abundant manual labor feticide is more likely to be viewed as a crime. In that same culture, infanticide of the infirm will be tolerated in time of want. Etc. In each instance a moral code -- perhaps a taboo or reinforcement for some common good -- precedes law and law is only necessary when the culture is not absolute. When the culture is absolute then laws are moot.

Now we live in probably the most diverse culture the planet has ever seen. A visitor to this country can return home and report he saw, " ..." and the chances are he is correct. Somebody in this country does it just that way. Under these circumstances laws become paramount and morals are secondary. However, no law can stand unless the majority of citizens concur with its basic morality. When the culture decides to ignore the law, nothing can or will resist change.

Bot
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post #69 of 116 (permalink) Old 08-26-2006, 08:22 PM Thread Starter
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I think the right wing made up the fact she "hid" this. I bet it is public knowledge.
You're beyond reason and thus any further attempts at a discussion with you are pointless.

Have a good life.
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post #70 of 116 (permalink) Old 08-26-2006, 09:12 PM Thread Starter
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We may actually be pretty close on this and it maybe simply a definitional difference. let's keep at it and find out.Bot
The missus calls, so I'll have to leave this for another day.

But I'll leave you with this cryptic (to many here, but perhaps not to you) note:

Alexander Pope's "An Essay on Man."

Do we, or don't we need laws?
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