When Did "The War On Terror" Start, And, How Do We Determine It Is Over? - Page 8 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #71 of 345 (permalink) Old 08-21-2006, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by That Guy
Not understanding me.
My point is that, if what has transpired in Iraq is called "western" and "freedom", its no wonder that they are afraid of it.

I think its sad that all they have in return for the bloodshed, death and chaos that they, as a people, have endured for the past 3 and a half years is text messaging (and awfully morbid texting at that). If we think that THAT is a beacon of light of what the "West" has to offer, then I'm amazed that they are not running in the opposite direction. If Iraq is what we are selling the broader ME as what democracy and the US have to offer, we won't be seeing any buyers.
Is peaceful, hopeless despotism preferable to chaotic hopeful democracy?
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post #72 of 345 (permalink) Old 08-21-2006, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by rstone
Yeah, but can you prove the glass is half full and not half empty.
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Don't believe everything you think
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post #73 of 345 (permalink) Old 08-21-2006, 05:30 PM
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Snapshot of the state of Israel

Israel’s population is 6 million people, including:

› 182,000 illegal settlers in the West Bank
› 20,000 illegal settlers in the occupied Golan Heights
› 7,000 illegal settlers in the Gaza Strip
› 176,000 illegal settlers in East Jerusalem1

Israel ranks as the 16th wealthiest country in the world, and Israelis enjoy a per capita income higher than Ireland, Spain, or oil-rich Saudi Arabia.2

Israel’s GNP is higher than the combined GNP of Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and the Occupied Palestinian Territories.3

Since 28 September 2000, Israeli police, soldiers and settlers have killed more than 2,050 Palestinians -- the vast majority of them civilians -- in contravention of international law

FUNDS

Nearly all past loans to Israel have been forgiven – leading Israel to claim that they have never defaulted on repayment of a US loan – with most loans made on the understanding that they would be forgiven before Israel was required to repay them.

Military Aid

The United States provides direct and indirect military aid to Israel – totalling more than it gives to all the countries of sub-Saharan Africa, Latin America, and the Caribbean put together, whose combined total population is 1,054,000,000.

According to a US Department of Defence Joint Report to Congress in March 2001, “It is in the United States’ national interest to promote the existence of a stable, democratic and militarily strong Israel, at peace with its neighbours […]”.7 According to a US State Department statement in November 2002, the US government is committed to “maintaining and enhancing Israel’s security and qualitative edge over any combination of adversaries” and “the important advantages the US-Israeli strategic relationship has and will continue to provide us.”8

Foreign Military Financing (FMF) is grants to foreign governments financing the purchase of American-made weapons, services and training. Israel receives 50% of the FMF budget request. The large sums paid by the US to Egypt and Jordan are in recognition of the two countries signing peace accords with Israel in 1979 and 1994 respectively.

FMF Budget Request FY 2001: Total budget request: $3.54 billion
Budget request for Israel: $1.98 billion
Budget request for Egypt: $1.3 billion
Budget request for Jordan $75 million

The Economic Support Fund (ESF) promotes economic and political stability in areas strategically important to the US. It is not intended for military usage, but allows the recipient government to free up other money, therefore providing indirect military aid. Israel receives the largest single grant of the Near East budget, which alone is 79% of the total ESF request.

ESF Budget Request, FY 2001:
Total budget request:
$2.313 billion

Budget request for Near East:
$1.828 billion, including:

Israel
$840 million

Egypt
$150 million

WB/GS
$100 million

"Protecting the Constitution vs Presidental powers is not about terrorism, but of doing what is right vs. what is easy. I choose doing right... where do you stand?"
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post #74 of 345 (permalink) Old 08-21-2006, 05:33 PM Thread Starter
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(Thread Starter)
This thread is getting more interesting. My original question had hoped to ask, if the "War on Terror" is going to last decades to hundreds of years, and the approach to fighting this "war" involves a persistent erosion of the substance of being an American in America, how can we hope to win when merely engaging in the "war" under these circumstances is losing. While still a question I would like to know how others feel about, the thrust of the discussion has switched to a more fundamental question of "why are we fighting a "war" on terror."

It is easy to categorize those offering any and all proposals to act other than the way we have as "Arab appologists" or "Jew haters" or, god forbid! "liberals" or even "Al-Qaeda sympathizers." There are equally shallow responses from the other side as well. However, given we all seem to agree this is a conflict that is nearly impossible to carry on effectively, much less successfully, under the present plan, how about we take a reasoned look at those chances of success if we merely stay the course?

I was a supporter of the "war on terror" when we attacked Iraq, I am now sorry to admit. Regardless of the reasons why I changed my outlook, it seems to me, to actually continue supporting the present course of confrontation by the United States military there has to be some vision of how things turn out, and they have to be good, right? Otherwise, wouldn't it be more reasonable to try to come up with another course of action that does have a positive outcome?

So, QBNCGAR, Bruce R., Jayhawk and others who appear to support the present course of action, what is your actual, believable (to you anyway) view of how the present course of action brings about the defeat of terror and a set of conditions where America can go back to being the America our Constitution prescribes? What are the key events, estimated timetables and reasoning for why these sequences are likely?

My issue, when I read the rstone recap of the grievances of the Arab world's acknowledged "extremist" leadership (but, at the same time the most effective leadership within the Middle East) is that we are engaging the war on terror on their terms, and, on their terms only they can win. We have elected to react to their actions, and they have studied us to the point where they operate our psyche like a puppeteer manipulating puppet strings.

I do not see the Iraqis taking our side in this confrontation. It is just not believable. We have done dispicable things to them, some on purpose, some out of just lack of regard for them and some by unfortunate accident. But the number and magnitude of the injuries is overhwelming. It is what the Ossamma's wanted and we have complied. It is apparent that we as a population understand so little of the Arab population's perspective that we misunderstand every communication, either due to arrogant neglect in our outlook (they should be grateful we deposed Saddam!) or genuine disdain, likely based on religious and racial bias. There can be no reasonable expectation that we are not viewed as a hostile occupying force, and, that those Iraqis who are supportive of us are viewed as the French Nazi sympathizers of WWII by their neighbors.


The premise rstone tried to offer, that we might learn something about the enemy if we listen to what he says and watch what he does, is probably pretty wise. It might also be wise to try to temper our plans by what we learn.

I have said this before and will offer it up again and again. The Israeli role in this is not a uniquely American problem. It is a UN problem. The UN created the borders that are now Israel, not the United States. It is now time for the UN to act on Israel's behalf, not the US. The US is a major UN participant, and source of funds, so I don't see how this is not possible.

The rest of the "demands" seem pretty reasonable. Let the Saudi royal family fend for itself in a struggle for power that has some kind of lasting resolution that does not depend on our enforcement. The same for the rest of the Middle East. We should stop supporting dictators, or dictators with titles like "King" or "Emir" and the like. And, we should develop a no holds barred approach to relieving the US from the need to have Middle East oil. Once we no longer need from the Arabs we can try to establish some less threatening relationship.

Jim
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post #75 of 345 (permalink) Old 08-21-2006, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rstone
....
Impact Summary

Benefits to Israel of U.S. Aid
Since 1949 (As of November 1, 1997)

Foreign Aid Grants and Loans
$74,157,600,000

Other U.S. Aid (12.2% of Foreign Aid)
$9,047,227,200

Interest to Israel from Advanced Payments
$1,650,000,000

Grand Total
$84,854,827,200

....

Except that's not what you said originally. I'll quote exactly what you said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by rstone
......
You know BB, my tax dollars have gone to support you guys, up to the tune of 100 billion a year......
(Emphasis mine).

Here's your post if you want to review it: http://www.benzworld.org/forums/2000478-post63.html.

You said 100 billion a year

In response I said it was more like 3 billion a year. Then you come back and say it is
85 billion since 1949 which is 85/57 yr= 1.5 billion a year on average but it has been more to the tune of 3 billion a year lately.

So you were wrong.

Last edited by baby boo; 08-21-2006 at 05:54 PM.
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post #76 of 345 (permalink) Old 08-21-2006, 05:49 PM
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W.O.T. is a label of convenience, a propaganda tool. It has no value since terrorism is a tool, not a goal (except for the likely psychopath here and there).

The "real" war is in response to Islamists who wish to colonize the planet for God, bringing the God's Holy Justice, sharia, to the planet. Those who hear the Word of God but do not submit to God's message of peace actually poison the faithful with lies. The only recourse is to remove those tools of Satan as humanely as possible.

In a democracy that values diversity and freedom of (and from) religion it is very difficult to introduce the idea that these very characteristics are the ones that the Islamists hate the most and are the foundation of their hate for western democracy.

So we call it a W.O.T. to give us cover for a secular vs religious war with islam.

B
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post #77 of 345 (permalink) Old 08-21-2006, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by baby boo
You said 100 billion a year

In response I said it was more like 3 billion a year. Then you come back and say it is
85 billion since 1949 which is 85/57 yr= 1.5 billion a year on average but it has been more to the tune of 3 billion a year lately.

So you were wrong.
That 100 billion was more a figure I had heard from someone, but most of been mentioned in passing as the total over time, and not per year. So yes, my numbers were off.

The 3 billion as I can make out is 1.2 billion from the Wye Agreement, which were the first numbers I posted, and another 1.9 billion or so for military aid, which gets you your 3 billion estimate according to the source below.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...o_Israel1.html

"Protecting the Constitution vs Presidental powers is not about terrorism, but of doing what is right vs. what is easy. I choose doing right... where do you stand?"
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post #78 of 345 (permalink) Old 08-21-2006, 05:55 PM
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So BB you want to explain to me WHY Israel who is the 16th wealthiest country in the world, where Israelis enjoy a per capita income higher than Ireland, Spain, or oil-rich Saudi Arabia. Where Israel’s GNP is higher than the combined GNP of Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and the Occupied Palestinian Territories DESERVES ANY money from American Taxpayers??? They seem to be doing fine on there own!.

"Protecting the Constitution vs Presidental powers is not about terrorism, but of doing what is right vs. what is easy. I choose doing right... where do you stand?"
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post #79 of 345 (permalink) Old 08-21-2006, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Botnst
W.O.T. is a label of convenience, a propaganda tool. It has no value since terrorism is a tool, not a goal (except for the likely psychopath here and there).

....

B
Exactly.

Terror is a technique used by our enemies and will never be totally defeated. WWII was not a war against panzer tanks and the V1 rocket it was a war against national socialist fascism.

WOT is a politically correct way of saying that we are at war with Islamofascism.

So if someone wants to specify that this is not literally a WOT but, instead, a "War on Islamofascism" that would be just fine with me.....
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post #80 of 345 (permalink) Old 08-21-2006, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by QBNCGAR
The implication here is that since terrorism is not a new phenomenon, we should just do what everyone else in history has done, which is to take it lying down.

I disagree.

The downfall of terrorism will be that it (logically) wishes to "work smarter, not harder". This implies some form of organization, command, and control be put in place. The more of this there is, the easier it is to identify exactly whom we should target to ensure the national security. This is still no walk in the park, but it's not exactly like herding cats anymore.

Perhaps the term "war" isn't accurate, or perhaps the definition needs to be expanded to accommodate the reality in which we find ourselves - fighting to protect our national security and our democratic way of life against an opposing force. Traditionally, opposing forces were very proud - wearing nice uniforms and putting their vast numbers and technologies on display in a type of "run what you brung" slugfest. These opposing forces are spineless, disgusting cowards who practice "hit and run" tactics. They're not pranksters - they're not going away. They struck first, after 9/11, they struck most recently. It's time to take them (and everyone like them) down for good. Seems finite to me, just doesn't seem easy...then again, doing the "right thing" seldom is.
A couple of points. First, Very few armies of the world wear nice uniforms, most wear whatever they can get their hands on [including our own Revolutionary War forces]. In more modern times [the last 50 years] the US fought forces from N Korea, N VietNam, Bosnia, Iraq, Afghanistan and Iraq, none who had "uniforms". In the two years I was in VietNam, most near the line, I never once saw an NVA that "looked" like an NVA other than the Russian or Chinese weapon.

While these terrorists are very very bad and need stopped, to call them spineless cowards is incorrect. Like it or hate it, it takes real balls to go up against a known superior force where the likelyhood of success is minimal and all that is driving you is your belief. Very misguided but powerful stuff.

As for how to take them out, earlier you posted "just take them down". We can't even find Bin Laden and there has to be 1000 people who know where he is. We offer $25M rewards to people who have never seen $1,000 and are surprised that the money does not work.

We have to find solutions to the root cause problems. The last five years in Iraq and Lebanon and Afghanistan have shown that the projection of power alone will not do the job. Iraq is a mess, in Religious War, Lebanon was a draw at best for the US/Israel and Afghanistan is seeing a repopulation of Taliban in record numbers. Add to that mix the stirring of the pot of Iran and Syria and we have an actively unstable arc that goes from the Mediterranean to India where five years ago we did not.

McBear,
Kentucky

Being smart is knowing the difference, in a sticky situation between a well delivered anecdote and a well delivered antidote - bear.
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