When Did "The War On Terror" Start, And, How Do We Determine It Is Over? - Page 4 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #31 of 345 (permalink) Old 08-21-2006, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by QBNCGAR
The war will be over when the mechanisms and individuals who facilitate the existence of Al Qaeda and their ability to carry out attacks has been fully, definitively, decisively eliminated.
Good luck with that!.

Terrorism has existed since 431 bc when the ancient greeks used psychological warfare against enemy populations and will continue to exist long after we all cease to exist. To call this a war is a misnomer.

A war takes place between two or more nations. Al Qaeda is not a nation. A war is executed over a period of time after which there is settlement of some kind. Terrorism will be with us for an indefinite period of time.

Terrorism should not be considered an act of war but a crime. Crime will always be with us. All we can do is diminish it. The same is true of terrorism.

Simply identifying and locating those who were responsible is a difficult and non-trivial task at which we have not proven adept in the past.

"Protecting the Constitution vs Presidental powers is not about terrorism, but of doing what is right vs. what is easy. I choose doing right... where do you stand?"
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post #32 of 345 (permalink) Old 08-21-2006, 09:27 AM
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I'm thinking the war on terror isn't a time thingy. I think it's an about events; when certain things happen, it will be over. That said, I think it behooves us to do everything that moves the cause forwrd to it's conclusion. Anything which protracts it is not helpful.
Out of curiosity, what "things" move it forward to it's conclusion??? Something about that statement sounds awfully apocalyptic to me. Is there a specific conclusion that you feel will inevitably be met? You sound a lot like you have a specific idea about these things based on your statements above. I'm curious as to what they are.
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post #33 of 345 (permalink) Old 08-21-2006, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by JimSmith
I get confused by the pretty universal acceptance of the phrase "we are at war with terror" being interpreted by the President as the trigger to assume the nation is at war when the Congress has never declared we are at war. The "War on Terror" is a catch phrase, not something Congress has validated with a declaration of war. So, given the only Congressional Resolutions on the issue of sending troops to Afghanistan and Iraq were not declarations of war, how is it the President and Gonzalez are making attempts to suggest we are at war, and that justifies this constant barrage of attempts to curtail the Bill of Rights? If war was never declared, and we apparently have no definition of exactly who the terrorists are, or what the end of "The War on Terror" will actually look like, isn't it dangerous to let someone chip away at the Bill of Rights indefinitely, using nothing more than the color coded threat system to assure us everything they do is in our best interests?

I find the whole theme of ceding additional power to the executive branch under these conditions alarming, first because it is a never ending threat, and to address this threat by unmaking America is just unacceptable, and second because the present Chief Executive has shown he can't handle the authority he already has.

Did I miss the Delcaration of War by Congress against Terror? Jim
Not to worry, it's not going to be over in your lifetime, or likely in anyone else's lifetime on this forum. You (or we, or however you want to say it) are the prime target of a rather large number of Fascists that clearly don't want the United States (and apparently Britain, as well as a number of other countries) to be around anymore. They think the rollicking Thirteenth Century is the way to go, and that's what they are aiming to put us all into. I kind of doubt that there are many of us that are willing to go there, whether or not George Bush is the President.
I think some of you folks are looking at this "war" as something we can push a button and it's all over with. Guys, we're not up against a country with nice fat targets that we can blast into radioactive green glass. We are up against a very large group of individuals that want us dead. They don't care if we're Republican, Democrat, Conservative, or Liberal. They don't care if we like them, hate them, want to understand what their problems are or not. THEY JUST WANT US DEAD! I take that back, they don't just want US dead, they want our children dead as well, Think about that for a second, they said so, so it's hard to argue with……. The sooner we understand that the better off we'll all be.

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post #34 of 345 (permalink) Old 08-21-2006, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Bruce R.
We are up against a very large group of individuals that want us dead. They don't care if we're Republican, Democrat, Conservative, or Liberal. They don't care if we like them, hate them, want to understand what their problems are or not. THEY JUST WANT US DEAD! I take that back, they don't just want US dead, they want our children dead as well, Think about that for a second, they said so, so it's hard to argue with……. The sooner we understand that the better off we'll all be.
What you fail to comprehend Bruce, is they despise our foreign policy and our unlimited support for Israel, and the fact we our present in the middle east. This isnt and has never been about them hating us because we are Americans or becuase they hate are freedoms. That is nothing more than propaganda spread by the Bush Administration to scare Americans into thinking the big, bad, scary Arab is out to get them and might be hiding in there closet. If you truely believe that just "hate" us well "just because" than you are truely naive.

"Protecting the Constitution vs Presidental powers is not about terrorism, but of doing what is right vs. what is easy. I choose doing right... where do you stand?"
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post #35 of 345 (permalink) Old 08-21-2006, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimSmith
I get confused by the pretty universal acceptance of the phrase "we are at war with terror" being interpreted by the President as the trigger to assume the nation is at war when the Congress has never declared we are at war. The "War on Terror" is a catch phrase, not something Congress has validated with a declaration of war. So, given the only Congressional Resolutions on the issue of sending troops to Afghanistan and Iraq were not declarations of war, how is it the President and Gonzalez are making attempts to suggest we are at war, and that justifies this constant barrage of attempts to curtail the Bill of Rights? If war was never declared, and we apparently have no definition of exactly who the terrorists are, or what the end of "The War on Terror" will actually look like, isn't it dangerous to let someone chip away at the Bill of Rights indefinitely, using nothing more than the color coded threat system to assure us everything they do is in our best interests?

I find the whole theme of ceding additional power to the executive branch under these conditions alarming, first because it is a never ending threat, and to address this threat by unmaking America is just unacceptable, and second because the present Chief Executive has shown he can't handle the authority he already has.

Did I miss the Delcaration of War by Congress against Terror? Jim
This might help you: http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/d...00/2515239.stm

Don't believe everything you think
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post #36 of 345 (permalink) Old 08-21-2006, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by rstone
Good luck with that!.

Terrorism has existed since 431 bc when the ancient greeks used psychological warfare against enemy populations and will continue to exist long after we all cease to exist. To call this a war is a misnomer.

......

Terrorism has been around since 432 BC?

What a surprise that is.

Aren't you the one who posted something you took verbatim out of mbworld.org to the effect that it's actually the joos who invented terrorism just in the last century?
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post #37 of 345 (permalink) Old 08-21-2006, 11:26 AM
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Orwell wrote of a continual war fought by the Ministy of Peace.

Last edited by Gregs300CD; 01-08-2007 at 04:19 PM.
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post #38 of 345 (permalink) Old 08-21-2006, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by rstone
What you fail to comprehend Bruce, is they despise our foreign policy and our unlimited support for Israel, and the fact we our present in the middle east. This isnt and has never been about them hating us because we are Americans or becuase they hate are freedoms. That is nothing more than propaganda spread by the Bush Administration to scare Americans into thinking the big, bad, scary Arab is out to get them and might be hiding in there closet. If you truely believe that just "hate" us well "just because" than you are truely naive.
Whoa whoa whoa whoa....THAT is apologism for radical/fundamentalist Muslims. And, it's wrong. Wrong wrong wrong. You take away any excuse you want for Al Qaeda and the like to hate us, and they will continue to hate us. We're infidels...beyond that, anything else we do just goes to further their hatred. The bottom line is that as long as we do not adhere to the letter of Islamic law, we will be as incompatible to their worldview as is water with raw sodium.

It's not "just because"...the reason is in the Qu'ran. The belief is that the entire earth is Heaven, and that Heaven isn't just someplace you go when you die. Imagine how rigteously indignant you would be if, after you died and went to heaven, you found that people like Hitler, etc. had snuck in from Hell and were trying to take over. THAT is the mindset that motivates Al Qaeda. The system of oppression and brainwashing that takes place in these deeply radical Islamic cells is pretty comprehensive. There's NO WAY that people enlisting to strap explosives to their chests and blow up other innocent people have the same methods for evaluating human life or global politics that you or I do. Opinions about our foreign policies, etc. never enter the mix - you do them too much justice to insinuate that these maniacs are rational, well informed "freedom fighters".
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post #39 of 345 (permalink) Old 08-21-2006, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by rstone
What you fail to comprehend Bruce, is they despise our foreign policy and our unlimited support for Israel, and the fact we our present in the middle east. This isnt and has never been about them hating us because we are Americans or becuase they hate are freedoms. That is nothing more than propaganda spread by the Bush Administration to scare Americans into thinking the big, bad, scary Arab is out to get them and might be hiding in there closet. If you truely believe that just "hate" us well "just because" than you are truely naive.
Well Sir, I guess they hate Italy, Spain, Australia, and a few other countries for the same reason? No wait, that can't be true because they don't support Israel with the same unlimited support that we do.
"This isn't and has never been about them hating us because we are Americans or because they hate are freedoms. "
You sir are so wrong about that, it's as if you have never left your home and looked around. They have hated infidels (read that as anyone that doesn't agree with them 100%) since before the Crusades. It's mainly a religious thing in case you didn't notice. You might recall that some of the worst wars in history were "In God's name." Everybody's on God's side when the stuff hits the fan.


Note: When I say "they" I'm not including every Muslim or Arab on the planet, that would be stupid and bigoted. "They" are those trapped by their religious beliefs and their Mullahs into thinking they are being conspired against by every other "non-believer" in the world. Personally I have a few (VERY few) Arab and Persian friends, and I consider them as decent people. I have to wonder though if things had been different and they were stuck in their homelands and forced to deal with the religious fervor that those folks have to live with, would they be the same nice people they are now?

"That is nothing more than propaganda spread by the Bush Administration to scare Americans into thinking the big, bad, scary Arab is out to get them and might be hiding in there closet."
Well, I guess you can blame Clinton, Bush 42, Carter, Nixon, and right on back to Eisenhower, Truman and FDR AT LEAST, because there hasn't been a whole lot of trust between the US and any Arab nation since before WW II. Check your history. The Middle East couldn't make up it's collective mind whose side it was going to be on even way back then…..

The "big scary Arab" doesn't scare me, never has, and I doubt that they ever will. As far as I know, there isn't a man (or woman) on Earth that can't be stopped in their tracks with one finger. I generally take individuals as they come, and treat them the same way that they treat me. I may be naive in that sense, but if a group tries to destroy me, mine, or my way of life, I tend to take umbrage, and I tend to want to strike back.
Personally I feel the US has been very light handed in this whole deal, It's always been my philosophy that when you strike an enemy you hit them as hard as you can. If they try to get up, you hit them again, even harder if possible. After that you give them a hand to get straightened out. We haven't even made it to the point where we have been to a face to face confrontation yet………..

"Negotiating with Obama is like playing chess with a pigeon, the pigeon knocks over all the pieces, on the board and then struts around like it won the game."
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post #40 of 345 (permalink) Old 08-21-2006, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by rstone
Good luck with that!.

Terrorism has existed since 431 bc when the ancient greeks used psychological warfare against enemy populations and will continue to exist long after we all cease to exist. To call this a war is a misnomer.
The implication here is that since terrorism is not a new phenomenon, we should just do what everyone else in history has done, which is to take it lying down.

I disagree.

The downfall of terrorism will be that it (logically) wishes to "work smarter, not harder". This implies some form of organization, command, and control be put in place. The more of this there is, the easier it is to identify exactly whom we should target to ensure the national security. This is still no walk in the park, but it's not exactly like herding cats anymore.

Perhaps the term "war" isn't accurate, or perhaps the definition needs to be expanded to accommodate the reality in which we find ourselves - fighting to protect our national security and our democratic way of life against an opposing force. Traditionally, opposing forces were very proud - wearing nice uniforms and putting their vast numbers and technologies on display in a type of "run what you brung" slugfest. These opposing forces are spineless, disgusting cowards who practice "hit and run" tactics. They're not pranksters - they're not going away. They struck first, after 9/11, they struck most recently. It's time to take them (and everyone like them) down for good. Seems finite to me, just doesn't seem easy...then again, doing the "right thing" seldom is.
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