When Did "The War On Terror" Start, And, How Do We Determine It Is Over? - Page 20 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #191 of 345 (permalink) Old 08-22-2006, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by rstone
Bruce I'm not going to play these games with you, the fact is that there was NO gun, only someone whispering into the ear of the military to fire theres even if they didnt see a gun.
The fact of the matter is the CIA, DIA, IAEA, and DOE knew that the experts disagreed with the Bush Administrations view on Iraq. The intelligence was altered, fabricated in some instances and exagerattered in others.
As for curveball, the real question should be WHY was a known liar brought back into the fold in 2000. I can only assume to use him as a excuse to fix the intelligence.
If you know more than the Government, please do share with us your documentation to prove it, because I'd love to read it.
I truly have to wonder where your head is....
( 1 ) The man was a Head of State, he had an Army, Air Force, and even a small Navy. The Iraqis are NOT stupid people, they have the capability to do the things they say they can. Whether you think so or not.
( 2 ) You get your information from the news media just as I do, what makes your sources any better then mine?
( 3 ) I'm willing to play games with you, why get all huffy and say you don't want to play with me, after all isn't that what OT is for?

"Negotiating with Obama is like playing chess with a pigeon, the pigeon knocks over all the pieces, on the board and then struts around like it won the game."
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post #192 of 345 (permalink) Old 08-22-2006, 10:07 AM
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Why is eveidence even required at this point? Iraq has proven to be a miserable failure. It was obvious from the start that miserable failure was the only possible outcome, and now it's right there for all to behold. Does anyone still believe any of this 'shining democracy in Iraq' crap? Tens of thousands dead at our hands -- for what?
For oil.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #193 of 345 (permalink) Old 08-22-2006, 10:07 AM
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I truly have to wonder where your head is....
( 1 ) The man was a Head of State, he had an Army, Air Force, and even a small Navy. The Iraqis are NOT stupid people, they have the capability to do the things they say they can. Whether you think so or not.
( 2 ) You get your information from the news media just as I do, what makes your sources any better then mine?
First off, I provided you with DOCUMENTS FROM THE US GOVERNMENT. These are NOT some media website articles or opinions. They are the real deal, which is more than I can so for you. THATS what makes mine better than yours, which I might add... you have failed to provide ANY anyways. If you have government documents that refute mine, please post them, otherwise stop with the BS.

Second, who cares if they have a military or the ability to fight war, so does every other country in the world. You don't go invaded other countries because you don't like the way they run there country. We are not the world police. Who are we to determine who gets to run which countries. Thats a pretty arrogant attitude.

"Protecting the Constitution vs Presidental powers is not about terrorism, but of doing what is right vs. what is easy. I choose doing right... where do you stand?"
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post #194 of 345 (permalink) Old 08-22-2006, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by GermanStar
OK-- so you believe that Iraq posed an imminent threat to the USA. Were you living in daily fear of an Iraqi invasion? Were you building a bomb shelter like folks did in the 60's when we were faced with a real threat? Was it ICBMs, a naval assault, or aerial bombardment that you feared most? Iraq couldn't even defend it's own borders, let alone threaten ours. All of Iraq's neighbors, who unlike us, were actually within striking range, begged us to stay away because Iraq was no threat. If Iraq could not harm Turkey, SA, Iran , Kuwait, etc. (just taking their word for it), how were they going to harm you or me? The idea is absolutely ludicrous. You want to use 3000 dead to rally an expedition to jack oil prices and enrich Halliburton, have at it.
"OK-- so you believe that Iraq posed an imminent threat to the USA. "

I believe that Iraq posed a threat to the United States through the act of supporting Al Qaeda. I don't believe anyone can argue with the fact that was occurring.

"Were you living in daily fear of an Iraqi invasion? Were you building a bomb shelter like folks did in the 60's when we were faced with a real threat? "

No actually I was loading F-102, F-105, and F-4 Fighters and Fighter-Bombers in a number of countries in the Far East, thanks for your concern………….

"Was it ICBMs, a naval assault, or aerial bombardment that you feared most? Iraq couldn't even defend it's own borders, let alone threaten ours. "

So I guess like I said before, as long as it's somewhere else, it's OK? Fact is it has happened here, a good friend of mine was in the Pentagon the day it was struck. He was lucky, he was on the other side of the building. With the current size of nuclear weapons, it doesn't take an ICBM to deliver one, a simple suitcase can do the job, so ANY aircraft could be a carrier ……….

" All of Iraq's neighbors, who unlike us, were actually within striking range, begged us to stay away because Iraq was no threat. "

Perhaps they were afraid of the spill over of a war nearby. You may recall the Turks are predominantly Islamic and their government is not the strongest, could there be a slight fear that they might be overthrown by a religious government such as they have in Iran?

"If Iraq could not harm Turkey, SA, Iran , Kuwait, etc. (just taking their word for it), how were they going to harm you or me? The idea is absolutely ludicrous. "

Tell that to the survivors of 9/11, whether or not you conceid the point Al Qaeda was supported by Iraq and they had training bases there. The Iraqi government was eager to supply weapons to Al Qaeda, and often did so.

"You want to use 3000 dead to rally an expedition to jack oil prices and enrich Halliburton, have at it."

That comment belittles you as a moderator, surely you can come up with something better as a retort.

"Negotiating with Obama is like playing chess with a pigeon, the pigeon knocks over all the pieces, on the board and then struts around like it won the game."
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"They have gun control in Cuba. They have universal health care in Cuba. So why do they want to come here?"
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"The only people who have quick answers don't have the responsibility of making the decisions."
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post #195 of 345 (permalink) Old 08-22-2006, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by FeelTheLove
For oil.
Can't we build cars that run on soylent green? It would be more efficient.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #196 of 345 (permalink) Old 08-22-2006, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Bruce R.

I believe that Iraq posed a threat to the United States through the act of supporting Al Qaeda. I don't believe anyone can argue with the fact that was occurring.
I now finally follow your reasoning. You believe that Iraq was supporting Al Qaeda, therefore shares responsibilty for 9/11. It is logical, and I agree 100%, based upon that premise. There's one little hitch in your giddyup though -- Iraq, and specifically Saddam Hussein, did not support Al Qaeda, and I challenge you to prove otherwise. The administration, as authors of this invasion, does not support your assertion, so I quess you're on your own...

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #197 of 345 (permalink) Old 08-22-2006, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by rstone
First off, I provided you with DOCUMENTS FROM THE US GOVERNMENT. These are NOT some media website articles or opinions. They are the real deal, which is more than I can so for you. THATS what makes mine better than yours, which I might add... you have failed to provide ANY anyways. If you have government documents that refute mine, please post them, otherwise stop with the BS.

Second, who cares if they have a military or the ability to fight war, so does every other country in the world. You don't go invaded other countries because you don't like the way they run there country. We are not the world police. Who are we to determine who gets to run which countries. Thats a pretty arrogant attitude.
First off check your web site,
The first one (CIA) wouldn't come up.........
The second one is NOT official government, it's ADA.
The third is United Nations, just as you believe nothing Bush says, I believe NOTHING to do with Koffi Annan.


"We are not the world police. Who are we to determine who gets to run which countries. Thats a pretty arrogant attitude."

Well here's something we can agree on. We are NOT the world Police, but who the heck does everybody run to when there's a problem? It sure as hell isn't the French.............

"Negotiating with Obama is like playing chess with a pigeon, the pigeon knocks over all the pieces, on the board and then struts around like it won the game."
Vladimir Putin

"They have gun control in Cuba. They have universal health care in Cuba. So why do they want to come here?"
Paul Harvey 8/31/94


"The only people who have quick answers don't have the responsibility of making the decisions."
Justice Clarence Thomas
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post #198 of 345 (permalink) Old 08-22-2006, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by GermanStar
I now finally follow your reasoning. You believe that Iraq was supporting Al Qaeda, therefore shares responsibilty for 9/11. It is logical, and I agree 100%, based upon that premise. There's one little hitch in your giddyup though -- Iraq, and specifically Saddam Hussein, did not support Al Qaeda, and I challenge you to prove otherwise. The administration, as authors of this invasion, does not support your assertion, so I quess you're on your own...
I would have to respectfully have to disagree with you, there were a number of "terrorist" training camps found in the area of Bagdad, and to the West of that area. I don't have time right now to locate documentation, but that is a fairly well know fact.

"Negotiating with Obama is like playing chess with a pigeon, the pigeon knocks over all the pieces, on the board and then struts around like it won the game."
Vladimir Putin

"They have gun control in Cuba. They have universal health care in Cuba. So why do they want to come here?"
Paul Harvey 8/31/94


"The only people who have quick answers don't have the responsibility of making the decisions."
Justice Clarence Thomas
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post #199 of 345 (permalink) Old 08-22-2006, 10:50 AM
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Tell that to the survivors of 9/11, whether or not you conceid the point Al Qaeda was supported by Iraq and they had training bases there. The Iraqi government was eager to supply weapons to Al Qaeda, and often did so.
How can I put this? Al Qaeda is to Iraq what Eskimos are to Nigeria -- unrelated. The current administration has worked hard at blurring this line, and I can see that you've tugged on the lure, but holding Iraq responsible for the actions of Al Qaeda is just wrong. Anyone who supports the Iraq invasion after seeing the results to date is just really dug in. If wholesale slaughter of innocents and imminent civil war doesn't convince you, I certainly won't, so I will leave you to your beliefs, and hope that somehow we're able to leave Iraq in better shape than we found it.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #200 of 345 (permalink) Old 08-22-2006, 10:50 AM
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"OK-- so you believe that Iraq posed an imminent threat to the USA. "

I believe that Iraq posed a threat to the United States through the act of supporting Al Qaeda. I don't believe anyone can argue with the fact that was occurring.
Released documents[1] recently declassified illustrate that some claims of a cooperative relationship between Iraq and al Qaeda made by top administration officials in support of the Iraq war were contrary to what U.S. intelligence officials believed to be true.

On October 7, 2002, President Bush asserted that "Iraq has trained al Qaeda members in bomb-making and poisons and deadly gases."

However, according to the newly declassified excerpts of classified documents:

A June 21, 2002 CIA report, "Iraq and al-Qa'ida: Interpreting a Murky Relationship," states that, relative to a report that Iraq provided chemical and biological weapons assistance to al Qaeda, "the level and extent of this is assistance is not clear." The document notes the "many critical gaps" in the knowledge of Iraqi links to al Qaeda because of "limited reporting" and the "questionable reliability of many of our sources."

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2005...ort.062102.pdf

The October 2, 2002 National Intelligence Estimate on Iraq's Continuing WMD Programs states: "As with much of the information on the overall [Iraq-al Qaeda] relationship, details on training and support are second-hand or from sources of varying reliability." It also notes that that the Intelligence Community "cannot determine...how many of the reported plans for CBW [Chemical and Biological Warfare] were actually realized."

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2005_cr/NIE.100202.pdf

A January 29, 2003 CIA report, "Iraqi Support for Terrorism," discusses the lack of "evidence of completed training," and says most of the reports of training "do not make clear whether training" was "actually implemented." It indicates that some number of the reports appeared to be based on "hearsay," and that others were "simple declarative accusations of Iraqi-al Qa'ida complicity with no substantiating detail or other information that might help us corroborate them."

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2005...ort.012903.pdf

On October 7, 2002, President Bush asserted that "Iraq has trained al Qaeda members in bomb-making and poisons and deadly gases."

However, according to the newly declassified excerpts of classified documents:

A June 21, 2002 CIA report, "Iraq and al-Qa'ida: Interpreting a Murky Relationship," states that, relative to a report that Iraq provided chemical and biological weapons assistance to al Qaeda, "the level and extent of this is assistance is not clear." The document notes the "many critical gaps" in the knowledge of Iraqi links to al Qaeda because of "limited reporting" and the "questionable reliability of many of our sources."

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2005...ort.062102.pdf

The October 2, 2002 National Intelligence Estimate on Iraq's Continuing WMD Programs states: "As with much of the information on the overall [Iraq-al Qaeda] relationship, details on training and support are second-hand or from sources of varying reliability." It also notes that that the Intelligence Community "cannot determine...how many of the reported plans for CBW [Chemical and Biological Warfare] were actually realized."

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2005_cr/NIE.100202.pdf

A January 29, 2003 CIA report, "Iraqi Support for Terrorism," discusses the lack of "evidence of completed training," and says most of the reports of training "do not make clear whether training" was "actually implemented." It indicates that some number of the reports appeared to be based on "hearsay," and that others were "simple declarative accusations of Iraqi-al Qa'ida complicity with no substantiating detail or other information that might help us corroborate them."

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2005...ort.012903.pdf

The declassified portions of the documents relate to the Intelligence Community's analysis of Iraq's connections to al Qaeda, and demonstrate that the Intelligence Community 1) did not conclude that Iraq had provided training to al Qaeda in Weapons of Mass Destruction technologies, and 2) that it was skeptical of an alleged meeting between the lead 9/11 hijacker (Mohammed Atta) and an Iraqi intelligence official in Prague five months before the 9/11 attacks.

As a key part of its case for going to war, the Bush Administration repeatedly suggested that Iraq had a significant cooperative relationship with the people who attacked us on 9/11. The documents provide new, previously classified details demonstrating that Administration statements about the Iraq-al Qaeda relationship were not supported by the underlying intelligence.

While the events of September 11, 2001 were horrible, I would like to remind you that the 9-11 Commission found no link between Iraq, Al-Qaida[2].

SOURCES

[1] http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2005...vin041505.html

[2] http://www.gpoaccess.gov/911/

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