COURT: NSA Wiretaps Must End - Page 7 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #61 of 151 (permalink) Old 08-17-2006, 09:19 PM
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post #62 of 151 (permalink) Old 08-17-2006, 09:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rstone
...Well here is your answer..."If I'm not doing anything wrong, then you have no cause to watch me."
I'm fairly certain this is the reality - those living lives even slightly above suspicion have nothing to fear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rstone
Privacy is an inherent human right, and a requirement for maintaining the human condition with dignity and respect.
I didn't say it wasn't. If we weren't in this wartime, post-9/11 situation and were talking about this, I'd be as righteously indignant as you. But we are. The circumstances are as unimaginable to the framers of the constitution as are the premises that the government plugs its ears, covers its eyes, and says "naanaaanaaanaa" when it comes to the topic of God or that some aspects of individual privacy would need to give way in order to ensure the protection of the greater good - NOT to further clandestine, underhanded efforts to oppress the general populace. Drawing parallels between current events and McCarthyism amounts to the tittering of an irresponsible alarmist.

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Originally Posted by rstone
Cardinal Richelieu understood the value of surveillance when he famously said, "If one would give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest man, I would find something in them to have him hanged."
Does honesty equal virtue? One can be honest yet still be a pretty dispicable individual. I could probably find names of some Catholic priests that meet this criteria...

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Originally Posted by rstone
Watch someone long enough, and you'll find something to arrest -- or just blackmail -- with. Privacy is important because without it, surveillance information will be abused: to peep, to sell to marketers and to spy on political enemies -- whoever they happen to be at the time.
This makes the assumption that the NSA, CIA, FBI, etc. are so over-staffed that they have tons of bored agents and empty jail cells, have put two-and-two together, and decided to just arrest people willy-nilly. I seriously doubt this is the case nor motivation behind wiretapping...

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Originally Posted by rstone
For if we are observed in all matters, we are constantly under threat of correction, judgment, criticism, even plagiarism of our own uniqueness. We become children, fettered under watchful eyes, constantly fearful that -- either now or in the uncertain future -- patterns we leave behind will be brought back to implicate us, by whatever authority has now become focused upon our once-private and innocent acts. We lose our individuality, because everything we do is observable and recordable.
The laws protect us from this type of tyrrany. You've said it yourself, I think - evidence deemed to have been collected illegally will be thrown out. Who do you think is going to mount this case and take it to trial without anything more than flotsam and jetsam they collected on you while looking for something else? Is your whole house wrapped in aluminum foil?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rstone
How many of us have paused during conversation in the past four-and-a-half years, suddenly aware that we might be eavesdropped on? Probably it was a phone conversation, although maybe it was an e-mail or instant-message exchange or a conversation in a public place...
Are you serious? Honestly? Well, not me...

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Originally Posted by rstone
This is the loss of freedom we face when our privacy is taken from us. This is life in former East Germany, or life in Saddam Hussein's Iraq. And it's our future as we allow an ever-intrusive eye into our personal, private lives.
In times of war, it's not unusual for Americans to have temporarily sacrificed their freedoms. There were laws regarding what you did with your cans, how much food you could buy, whether or not you served the country's military, whether or not you could have lights on at night, whether or not you could walk or drive freely at certain times. The point wasn't to oppress people into submission, the point was to protect the nation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rstone
Too many wrongly characterize the debate as "security versus privacy." The real choice is liberty versus control. Tyranny, whether it arises under threat of foreign physical attack or under constant domestic authoritative scrutiny, is still tyranny. Liberty requires security without intrusion, security plus privacy. Widespread police surveillance is the very definition of a police state. And that's why we should champion privacy even when we have nothing to hide.
Tyranny is what Iraq experienced under Saddam Hussein...Absolute power, exercised unjustly and cruelly. To equate efforts to protect this nation to acts of tyranny is, especially for you, obtuse, and more generally, insulting to those who do their jobs in the interests of the nation's protection.

I realize I'm taking a more "realist" approach to the argument, in response to the more "philosophical" tact you've chosen. I'm not doing this to make a fight - philosophically, I agree with you 100,000%. But as a conservative, I tend to be more of a realist, and the reality is that there are LOTS of mitigating factors here which must temper the philosophical goals of our free, liberated society...temporarily, and only temporarily, until the threat has been abated. I hope that makes my point.
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post #63 of 151 (permalink) Old 08-17-2006, 09:33 PM
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Naaah, I don't feel like I can hold a lie for too long, I have to find the feature to change my name on Benzworld. Can you think of a name for me boo?
How 'bout "instructor?"

Don't believe everything you think
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post #64 of 151 (permalink) Old 08-17-2006, 09:34 PM
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How 'bout "instructor?"
huh? that requires more work, I am too lazy for that.
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post #65 of 151 (permalink) Old 08-17-2006, 11:57 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by QBNCGAR
I realize I'm taking a more "realist" approach to the argument, in response to the more "philosophical" tact you've chosen. I'm not doing this to make a fight - philosophically, I agree with you 100,000%. But as a conservative, I tend to be more of a realist, and the reality is that there are LOTS of mitigating factors here which must temper the philosophical goals of our free, liberated society...temporarily, and only temporarily, until the threat has been abated. I hope that makes my point.
To suggest American citizens should give up any reductions in Americans' civil liberties is a bad idea; once lost, freedom is rarely won or given back ...

"Trust us?" Hardly. Neither the Declaration of Independence nor the U.S. Constitution was written by people who were "patriotic" about trusting government or allowing rulers to determine their freedom. Neither should we now.

From a practical perspective, requiring a showing of probable cause before a warrant may be issued will in no way hamper terrorist investigations. For one thing, federal authorities still would have numerous tools available to investigate and monitor the activities of non-citizens suspected of terrorism. Second, restoring the Fourth Amendment protections would in no way interfere the government's law enforcement and intelligence agencies investigations.

The probable cause requirements will not delay a terrorist investigation. Preparations can be made for the issuance of a warrant in the event of an emergency, and allowances can be made for cases where law enforcement does not have time to obtain a warrant. In fact, a requirement that law enforcement demonstrate probable cause may help law enforcement focus their efforts on true threats, thus avoiding the problem of information overload that is handicapping the government's efforts to identify sources of terrorist financing.

The requirement that law enforcement demonstrate probable cause before a judge preserves the Founders' system of checks and balances that protects against one branch gathering too much power. The Founders recognized that one of the chief dangers to liberty was the concentration of power in a few hands, which is why they carefully divided power among the three branches. I would remind those who claim that we must set aside the constitutional requirements during war that the founders were especially concerned about the consolidation of power during times of war and national emergences. We should also keep in mind that like the Patriot Act which was intended to help in terrorism investigations, the Patriot Act has repeatedly been used in non-terrorism related cases. What is to prevent the NSA from doing the same thing.

"Protecting the Constitution vs Presidental powers is not about terrorism, but of doing what is right vs. what is easy. I choose doing right... where do you stand?"
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post #66 of 151 (permalink) Old 08-18-2006, 12:49 AM
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In defense of Jayhawk

Quote:
Originally Posted by rstone
Sure you did... LOL

Coming from someone who can't even articulate a legal argument, provide a single case law to support his view or interpret the consitution, I say your full of it.
No one can interpret the 'consitution' because no one knows what the heck that is.

Mi$ter Right.
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post #67 of 151 (permalink) Old 08-18-2006, 12:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Professor
Naaah, I don't feel like I can hold a lie for too long, I have to find the feature to change my name on Benzworld. Can you think of a name for me boo?
Why do you want to change your name?

Here's a tidbit that I'm sure you'll find amusing: for many years people at work referred to me as "the Professor". I started calling myself that long ago in a sarcastic self-deprecating manner. I sometimes referred to my collegues as "assistant professor" and it always got a chuckle. Then over the years I guess the novelty wore off and I stopped using that name and now I'm known as "boo" (not baby boo). "Boo" is a name that certain people give to their children when they are small. It's bascially a term of endearment in certain cultures. I was amused and took a liking to it because it seemed at once so whimsical and yet so "appropriate."
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post #68 of 151 (permalink) Old 08-18-2006, 12:53 AM
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Red face You didn't ask me. But, May I suggest...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Professor
Naaah, I don't feel like I can hold a lie for too long, I have to find the feature to change my name on Benzworld. Can you think of a name for me boo?
Cheater???

Mi$ter Right.
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post #69 of 151 (permalink) Old 08-18-2006, 06:47 AM
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Originally Posted by baby boo
Why do you want to change your name?

Here's a tidbit that I'm sure you'll find amusing: for many years people at work referred to me as "the Professor". I started calling myself that long ago in a sarcastic self-deprecating manner. I sometimes referred to my collegues as "assistant professor" and it always got a chuckle. Then over the years I guess the novelty wore off and I stopped using that name and now I'm known as "boo" (not baby boo). "Boo" is a name that certain people give to their children when they are small. It's bascially a term of endearment in certain cultures. I was amused and took a liking to it because it seemed at once so whimsical and yet so "appropriate."
Boo is a baby name? I have only heard that usage in one region, cher.
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post #70 of 151 (permalink) Old 08-18-2006, 08:52 AM
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Just when I needed an example of AM Radio Shitheadism, ole guage comes thru. "Clinton body count", what a dumb fuck.

http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/outrage/clinton.htm
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