The Triumph of Unrealism: George Will sends shockwaves thru conservative movement - Page 5 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #41 of 47 (permalink) Old 08-19-2006, 06:10 PM
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Yes, I'll admit that some of the Bush I stuff seemed peculiar and basically incomprehensible -- particularly the mixed message in regard to Kuwait, but he was wise enough to avoid getting his country involved in an untenable situation in the ME (specifically Iraq). As an ex-CIA director and an oil man, I just accepted that he had a different world view than most folks, and ultimately found him much more palatable than his son. All in all, I would give Bush I a neutral rating as POTUS, far beneath Reagan, somewhat beneath Clinton, far above Carter (who wasn't).

Speaking of Scuds, I have a lot of Jewish friends and family members, and quite a few support GW and the invasion of Iraq solely because of the dozen or so Scuds that rained down on Israel -- simple retribution. This emotionally charged stance strikes me as a bit peculiar, because they are Americans, not Israelis, yet take personal offense as if they themselves were attacked. I'm not putting this stance (or any other) on you -- just sharing an interesting footnote that strikes me as an oddity.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #42 of 47 (permalink) Old 08-19-2006, 06:36 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by GermanStar
So GW embraces it, but you don't? No offense, but I'll take his word over yours... You should really try to get past this goodspeak/badspeak thing you have going and simply embrace the truth as the truth.
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post #43 of 47 (permalink) Old 08-19-2006, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by GermanStar
So GW embraces it, but you don't? No offense, but I'll take his word over yours... You should really try to get past this goodspeak/badspeak thing you have going and simply embrace the truth as the truth.
You're taking W's word!? Don't try to give me that crap!!! You wouldn't take his word for the gospel itself. Such B.S...

Don't believe everything you think
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post #44 of 47 (permalink) Old 08-19-2006, 08:23 PM
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I love you man -- you absolutely kill me with this stuff!

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #45 of 47 (permalink) Old 08-20-2006, 12:20 AM
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That is your concept or interpretation of my "concept" on the matter. Self defense is not ruled out, in fact, on 9-12 we should have nuked that asshole Osamma and his supporters the Taliban in Afghanistan.
I am simply taking what you write and then carrying it to its logical (or illogical0 conclusion.

So, after 9/11 you would have used nukes on Osama. Again, interesting concept.

Where exactly would you have aimed those nukes at?

Afghanistan? How about all the people who DID NOT support or even care for the Taliban?

A well-aimed missile perhaps? Like the ones that bill clinton supposedly aimed at OBL which resulted in the death of a few innocent camels?

I am just curious to find out what you conisder to be a justifiable use of a nuke?

Under what circumstance would we be justified in nuking a country?

How much nuking and what targets are OK.

Under what circumstances would we not be justified in nuking a nation?

Which targets are not OK?

I just want to see to what extreme you are ready to carry your position.

A man should not be afraid tohave is logic and philosophy tested.

You keeping putting this stuff out there. I just want to see where you are going with all of this.

The ball, as they say, is now in your court.
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post #46 of 47 (permalink) Old 08-20-2006, 09:48 AM
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In the immediate aftermath of 9-11 we had pretty good evidence of where Osamma was, which was not in a large city, and where the guys running the Taliban were (also a fairly large and isolated compound). A simple demand with a time limit would have been sufficient. If he was within severall hundred miles when the nuke device went supercritical, he would be dead. Along with tens of thousands, possibly innocent Afghanis. I don't see why it is better to slowly kill an equal number of innocent Iraqis, or, if this goes on forever as it seems it will, even more Iraqis.

I realize the idea of nuking is scary to many. We have debated this in the past here and on other boards and not many people will agree. At this point it is too late to nuke as we have been sucked into the Iraq quagmire for no good reason and now, a nuke won't get us out cleanly. In another ten years with several hundred thousand deaths (mostly "collateral damage") and no end in sight, the idea of letting terrorists dictate the conditions of engaging America, when those conditions do not overwhelmingly favor an American victory, may appear to be a gross strategic mistake by others, not just me.

Osamma was in Afghanistan, and the Taliban was protecting him, and the Taliban was, more or less, running the show. So, yes, nuke his locations in Afghanistan.

In case you and others haven't noticed, we suck at this stuff we are doing in Afghanistan and Iraq. We were attacked by an arm or agent of the Aghanistan government. That should have resulted in an attack, not of measured response that gets more Americans killed, but one that assures our safety. I would rather have America be around to explain for centuries why we nuked Osamma and his followers than to, as you noted, let America bleed to death from a thousand stab wounds, a long term, likely outcome if we follow the present philosophy of calling it the "war on terror" but engaging like it was a Nintendo game.

We should have left Iraq alone and focused on making Iran concerned about how we would view their role in 9-11, which was always much more explicit and documented than anything Saddam was purported to have done.

Feel free to disagree. The moment when the international community might have "understood" has passed and we will keep shipping American boys and girls over to the Middle East to be bled to death, along with billions of dollars that eventually (like the Russians) cripple our economy, engaged in some ever changing mission that can never succeed. When did Congress vote to authorize the removal of Saddam? When did Congress vote to authorize the democratization of the Middle East? The authorization was based on a fabricated tale of WMD and links to Al-Qaeda. All the rest of these reasons have been sold to America by a master telemarketer, Karl Rove to avoid the wrath that should befall those engaged in promulgating the charade of Saddam's WMD. The new reasons are presented carefully to sound great, but they violate existing Congressional Resolutions, and therefore they are illegal. Jim

Last edited by JimSmith; 08-20-2006 at 09:50 AM.
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post #47 of 47 (permalink) Old 08-20-2006, 04:33 PM Thread Starter
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Another Republican who is guilty of the crime of making sense:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,209499,00.html

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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