Why gay marriage? - Page 11 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #101 of 161 (permalink) Old 08-09-2006, 05:42 PM
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Just because people assume something to be legal or right, does not make it so. Thats why we have courts to interpret the law. Many states back in the 1950's the majority of citizens believed it should be illegal for Blacks to have equal protection under the law, and therefore be denied the same rights as white people. Had it not been for the Supreme Court in Brown v. Board of Education, and left to the citizens they still might not be protected under the law.

The consititution does not exist to protect the majority from the minority or popular speech from unpopular speech, but to protect those who need protection from a majority who would force their own points of views, beliefs, morals, religion on everyone else, while trying to eliminate any rights the minority may have that conflict with their own.

We refer to basic human rights like the freedom of speech and association, liberty, and equal treatment in court as civil rights, because they are fundamental rights that each and every citizen should not be denied on the basis of their sex, race, or religious belief. Not only were gay people denied of equal treatment in court ("de jure"), but they also have been victims of violence and harassment in our own society on the base of their sexual orientation ("de facto"). Equal protection of the law is guaranteed by the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments and reinforced by hundreds of local, state and federal civil rights laws. Although the Fourteenth Amendment, ratified at the end of the Civil War, was designed to ensure legal equality for African Americans, Congress wrote it as a general guarantee of equality, and the courts have interpreted the Equal Protection Clause to prohibit discrimination.

The right to privacy, or "the right to be left alone," is guaranteed by the Fourth, Fifth, Ninth and Fourteenth Amendments. In 1965, Griswold v. Connecticut struck down a state law that prohibited married couples from obtaining contraceptives, citing "zones of privacy." In 1967, Loving v. Virginia decriminalized interracial marriage. The 1972 Eisenstadt v. Baird decision recognized unmarried persons' right to contraceptives. And in 1973, Roe v. Wade recognized women's right to reproductive choice. All of these Supreme Court decisions underscore the principle that decisions about intimate relationships are personal and should be left up to the individual.

As the Supreme Court explained in Romer v. Evans, there is nothing "special" about laws which prevent people from losing jobs and homes because of who they are. Most of us take the right to participate in daily life on an equal footing for granted, the Court said, either because we already have the right under the law, or because we are not subjected to that kind of discrimination. Laws which prohibit discrimination simply give LGBT people that basic right to be equal participants in the communities in which they live.

Denying lesbian and gay couples the right to wed not only deprives them of the social and spiritual significance of marriage; it has serious, often tragic, practical consequences. Since they can not marry, the partners of lesbians and gay men are not next of kin in times of crisis; they are not consulted on crucial medical decisions; they are not given leave to care for each other; they are not each other's legal heirs, if, like most Americans, they do not have wills. Marital status is often the basis on which employers extend health insurance, pension and other benefits.

"Protecting the Constitution vs Presidental powers is not about terrorism, but of doing what is right vs. what is easy. I choose doing right... where do you stand?"
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post #102 of 161 (permalink) Old 08-09-2006, 05:44 PM
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Civil Unions bring the stability of a committed relationship, but also more than 1,138 automatic federal and additional state protections, benefits and responsibilities designed to support and protect family life, including:

Protecting Family Life

* Marriage establishes an automatic right to joint parenting - including joint adoption, joint foster care, custody and visitation for non-biological parents.
* Immigration and residency are open to spouses from other countries.
* When a spouse dies, marriage entitles the surviving spouse to bereavement leave from work, to file wrongful death claims and to decide numerous other legal rights and protections.
* When marriages end, divorce protections covers shared property, child support and alimony.
* Spousal privilege protects married couples from being forced to testify against each other.

Ensuring Financial Stability

* Married couples can sign up for joint home and auto insurance policies and joint rental leases with automatic renewal rights if a spouse dies or leaves.
* In the case of death, a spouse can draw on the Social Security of the deceased husband or wife, automatically inherit a shared home, assets and personal items in absence of a will, inherit retirement savings tax free, and be exempt from property tax increases.
* Married couples can file joint tax returns and are eligible for additional tax benefits and claims.

Supporting Family Health

* Spouses are automatically next of kin for the purposes of hospital visits and emergency medical decisions.
* Employers often cover spouses of employees through health insurance.
* Spouses are entitled to family medical leave to care for a sick husband or wife.

"Protecting the Constitution vs Presidental powers is not about terrorism, but of doing what is right vs. what is easy. I choose doing right... where do you stand?"
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post #103 of 161 (permalink) Old 08-09-2006, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Professor
I am not expert but would you please cite where it is defined as an illness. What kind of studies were made, how many and what's the common theme in their conclusions?
So as not to confuse you, I think I will stop at your excellent assessment: "I am not expert..." You definetly got that right!

Don't believe everything you think
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post #104 of 161 (permalink) Old 08-09-2006, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Jayhawk
Get a lawyer and set up your trust
Sure, they can seek out a lawyer and create wills, health proxies, co-parent adoptions, co-leases, name changes, etc and there are many legal ways that same-sex couples can try to protect each other and their children. However, desired protections may be unavailable, unsuccessful in court and/or not always respected by individuals, businesses or the government. This is the basis for equal treatment under the law.

"Protecting the Constitution vs Presidental powers is not about terrorism, but of doing what is right vs. what is easy. I choose doing right... where do you stand?"
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post #105 of 161 (permalink) Old 08-09-2006, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by starcar126
Again, why is a religion involved in a CIVIL issue?????

1 Man + 1 Woman = 1 short of a Threesome

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post #106 of 161 (permalink) Old 08-09-2006, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by rstone
Are you implying you know better than Sigmund Freud?? I think I'm going to have to call you out on this one, lets see that Ph.D of yours?? I call

The problem with the psychoanalytic theories of homosexuality have been that they are based on the analysts' clinical observations of patients already known by them to be homosexual.

Two major problems result from this procedure. First, the analyst's theoretical orientations, expectations, and personal attitudes are likely to bias her or his observations. This is why scientists take great pains in their studies to ensure that the researchers who actually collect the data do not have expectations about how a particular research participant will respond. An example is the "double blind" procedure used in many experiments. Such procedures have not been used in clinical psychoanalytic studies of homosexuality.

A second problem with psychoanalytic studies is that they have only examined homosexuals who were already under psychiatric care – in other words, homosexuals who were seeking treatment or therapy. Patients, however, are probably not representative of well-adjusted individuals in the general population. Just as it would be inappropriate to draw conclusions about all heterosexuals based only on data from heterosexual psychiatric patients, we cannot generalize from observations of homosexual patients to the entire population of gay men and lesbians.
Sigmund Freud is not someone I want to be associated w/. His bogus theories have long been disputed and I am at the head of the line. If there is anyone I associate w/ it is my late, great, friend B.F. Skinner. Check him out and maybe you will begin to get a clue.

Don't believe everything you think

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post #107 of 161 (permalink) Old 08-09-2006, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Jayhawk
You can pull extreme examples out of your you-know-what all day long, but if they really want a legal link w/ teeth, have an attorney draw up an agreement/contract that deals w/ your/their concerns, but DO NOT ask me to sanction or pay for an illegal hook-up. Good lord man, I can't believe your "I have a gay friend too" crap. I probably have more gay friends than you, and they think this gay marriage crap is doing them more harm than good. If you really want to help your gay friends (both of them), for heaven's sake put them in touch w/ a good lawyer.
That was the least "extreme" example I think I could see. Now, do you want me to ask the [and I actually made a list to count just for you] 15 lawyers, 5 archetects, 2 mayors, 4 state legislators, 1 Congressman [not Kentucky], 4 racecar drivers [two you have heard of] 17 doctors, 13 professors, 18 software/hardware engineers or 9 social workers that I have listed in my Palm Pilot? That does not include spouses [except 5].

Why should they have to have "different" rights than anyone else? That is what no one wants to answer.

You do not have to pay for anything. It is not your responsibility any more than it is when a man and woman marry. Are you concerned that more hetero people getting married are going to cost you more? That is what you said above.

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post #108 of 161 (permalink) Old 08-09-2006, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Jayhawk
As long as the "civil union" doesn't involve taxes, insurance, or anydthing else, it probably does not. Are you looking for a dust-up?
A civil union, which is the same thing that you and Mrs JayHawk have, costs the same no matter if it is a gay couple, a rich couple, a hetero couple, a poor couple or a brother/sister couple [for our Tennessee members].

And I use Lemon Pledge for dust.

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post #109 of 161 (permalink) Old 08-09-2006, 06:06 PM
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Marriage is something more than a civil contract to subject regulation by the state; it is a fundamental right. There can be no prohibition of marriage except from an important social objective and by reasonable means. Legislation infringing such as rights must be based upon more than prejudice and must be free from oppressive discrimination to comply with the constitutional requirements of due process and equal protection under the law.

Since the right to marry is the right to join in marriage with the person of one's choice, a statute that prohibits an individual from marrying a person of a gender the same as his own restricts the scope of his choice and thereby restricts his right to marry. It must be therefore determined whether the state can resrict that right on the basis of sexual orientation alone without violating equal protection.

Distinctions between citizens solely because of their sexual orientation are by their very nature odious to a free people whos institutions are founded upon the doctrine of equility. Since the essence of the right to marry is a freedom to join in marriage with the person of one's choice, a gender-restriction statute for marriage necessarily impairs the right to marry.

There is no scientific proof that one sexual orientation is superior to another. Certainly the fact alone that the discrimination has been sanctioned by the state for many years does not supply justification.

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post #110 of 161 (permalink) Old 08-09-2006, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by offroadwarrior
A few women have facial hair, and an abnormally long mustache. They go to great lengths to trim it. It's genetic. What's your point?
Damned snappy logic.

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