Israel Invades Lebanon - Page 3 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #21 of 54 (permalink) Old 08-03-2006, 07:24 AM Thread Starter
BenzWorld Elite
 
FeelTheLove's Avatar
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: 83 Astral Silver 280 SL
Location: Planet Houston
Posts: 28,829
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
(Thread Starter)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Botnst
Proof that we see what we choose to see and learn from that the lessons we choose to learn.

You suggested it was impossible to beat an insurgency.

I offer examples of failed insurgencies

You set a new goal of finding an insurgency that matches the current one.
-----------------
Here are facts: No war has ever been like any other war.
1. No insurgency has ever been like any other insurgency.
2. There is no one method that will always work on either side.
3. Failure to adapt to changes in the confrontation will lead to further failure.
4. The one that abandons the effort loses.
When did I ever say it was impossible to beat an insurgency? My point is made by your examples: insurgencies can only be defeated in today's world either by genocide or political solutions among parties that are willing to stop fighting. Simple imposition of some idealogical system like some nebulous "democracy building" is a stupid man's solution, as it ignores the quaint fact that democracy is impossible in a place where an insurgency is still voting with car bombs.

This tenet of Nazism that has crept into right wing thinking, the idea that we can "bend others to our will" is ridiculous unless one is ready to except just how the Nazis accomplished that. The Romans practiced genocide and enslavement, and that is how they bent others to their will, or exterminated them as in the case of Carthage if they were brave enough and proud enough not to be victims. Nazism simply intended to modernize the same ideas. The US government did the same to the Indians. The British eventually lost all their colonies to insurgencies of one type or another, as did the French, in insurgenicies much like the ones in Iraq, a permanant outcome: you posit a temporary success like Malaysia as somehow a bedrock principle of your thinking, when in fact the British Empire abandoned all it's colonies, exhausted by insurgencies.

My point is simple: as long as there is even a minimal number of men willing to die for a cause, and there is a civilian population that is willing to supply and succor them, an insurgency is an insolvable problem unless we are willing to use methods abhorrent to our culture. The paucity of rightwing results in this war is because they have failed to realize that, instead thinking that simple coercion and police-state methods mixed with some promise of "democracy", with occasional horrific military action will suffice. One must look at the masters of stopping insurgencies, and see what their methods are: Stalin would round up all the people, and ship them off to segregated areas, sometimes to unihabitable places so they would all die. Hitler simply shot them publicly enmass. Saddam gassed them with nerve gas. Mao worked them to death in "re-education" camps. Scipio Africanus sowed their fields with salt. Caesar killed everyone in a town that harbored insurgents - Gaul was not pacified, it garrisoned, with half its people being shipped off as slaves while those behind remained as serfs. Sherman shot every buffalo while Custer massacred villages of women and children, while every white man practiced "the only good Indian is a dead Indian" as a religion. You are right, they all worked. Are you willing to see the US begin using those types of methods now that "Reconstruction" and "Democracy Building" have obviously failed, doing nothing more than creating an enviroment where insugency flourishes to the point it is now being exported to the rest of the Middle East from the insane asylum we have created in Iraq?

Last edited by FeelTheLove; 08-03-2006 at 07:47 AM.
FeelTheLove is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #22 of 54 (permalink) Old 08-03-2006, 11:20 AM
BenzWorld Senior Member
 
felkhound's Avatar
 
Date registered: Nov 2005
Vehicle: 2006 SLK350
Location: North Little Rock, AR
Posts: 544
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
So, when the other side is not willing to negotiate or fails to keep their agreements once a negotiation is finalized, your suggestion is what?

No reaction & under reaction to threats bring only more threats, Over reaction brings condemnation.

Your options are:
cower in fear, afraid that you might piss somebody off by protecting yourself so your people are killed & maimed daily, while taking no action.
or
_____ (fill in the blank) -- many of you have claimed Israel and the U.S. have gone about all of this wrong, tell the world what it takes to make the everyone safe from the people who loathe your very existence.

2006 SLK350
Something Silver

“I’m sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and disagree with this administration, somehow you’re not patriotic. We need to stand up and say we’re Americans, and we have the right to debate and disagree with any administration.”
- Hillary Clinton
felkhound is offline  
post #23 of 54 (permalink) Old 08-03-2006, 12:49 PM
BenzWorld Elite
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: 95 E300
Location: Inside my head
Posts: 36,850
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 392 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by FeelTheLove
When did I ever say it was impossible to beat an insurgency? My point is made by your examples: insurgencies can only be defeated in today's world either by genocide or political solutions among parties that are willing to stop fighting. Simple imposition of some idealogical system like some nebulous "democracy building" is a stupid man's solution, as it ignores the quaint fact that democracy is impossible in a place where an insurgency is still voting with car bombs.

This tenet of Nazism that has crept into right wing thinking, the idea that we can "bend others to our will" is ridiculous unless one is ready to except just how the Nazis accomplished that. The Romans practiced genocide and enslavement, and that is how they bent others to their will, or exterminated them as in the case of Carthage if they were brave enough and proud enough not to be victims. Nazism simply intended to modernize the same ideas. The US government did the same to the Indians. The British eventually lost all their colonies to insurgencies of one type or another, as did the French, in insurgenicies much like the ones in Iraq, a permanant outcome: you posit a temporary success like Malaysia as somehow a bedrock principle of your thinking, when in fact the British Empire abandoned all it's colonies, exhausted by insurgencies.

My point is simple: as long as there is even a minimal number of men willing to die for a cause, and there is a civilian population that is willing to supply and succor them, an insurgency is an insolvable problem unless we are willing to use methods abhorrent to our culture. The paucity of rightwing results in this war is because they have failed to realize that, instead thinking that simple coercion and police-state methods mixed with some promise of "democracy", with occasional horrific military action will suffice. One must look at the masters of stopping insurgencies, and see what their methods are: Stalin would round up all the people, and ship them off to segregated areas, sometimes to unihabitable places so they would all die. Hitler simply shot them publicly enmass. Saddam gassed them with nerve gas. Mao worked them to death in "re-education" camps. Scipio Africanus sowed their fields with salt. Caesar killed everyone in a town that harbored insurgents - Gaul was not pacified, it garrisoned, with half its people being shipped off as slaves while those behind remained as serfs. Sherman shot every buffalo while Custer massacred villages of women and children, while every white man practiced "the only good Indian is a dead Indian" as a religion. You are right, they all worked. Are you willing to see the US begin using those types of methods now that "Reconstruction" and "Democracy Building" have obviously failed, doing nothing more than creating an enviroment where insugency flourishes to the point it is now being exported to the rest of the Middle East from the insane asylum we have created in Iraq?
Conveniently left out the Malaysia and Peruvian experiences. There are alternatives.

As far as being widely supported, the Sunni Arab insurrection is supported by no more than 20% of the population, the approx proportion of Iraqi Sunnis. Let's just pretend that 100% of the Sunni Arabs support the insurrectionists. Since they are mostly located in just a few provinces, I woul dhardly call that a widely-supported insurrection. On the contrary, the other (wacko) group that is busy killing people is a couple of Shiite groups, and they are NOT targeting the coalition. Who are they targeting? (pause) The Sunni. Since the Shia represent about 60% of the population, lets give that group the same supposed support as the Sunni's--100%. The remainder are mostly Kurds and they got theirs so they don't care whether the Shiites and Sunnis kiss and make up or slaughter each other.

The coalition is now trying to prevent a civil war. Casey (on CNN) just indicated that the situation is close, but not quite civil war.

Given all of that, to equate the evolving circumstance in Iraq, in which we are increasingly playing the role of mediator and policeman rather than combatant, with genocidal wars of conquest is...ludicrous.

B
Botnst is offline  
post #24 of 54 (permalink) Old 08-03-2006, 04:13 PM Thread Starter
BenzWorld Elite
 
FeelTheLove's Avatar
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: 83 Astral Silver 280 SL
Location: Planet Houston
Posts: 28,829
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
(Thread Starter)
Quote:
Originally Posted by felkhound
So, when the other side is not willing to negotiate or fails to keep their agreements once a negotiation is finalized, your suggestion is what?

No reaction & under reaction to threats bring only more threats, Over reaction brings condemnation.

Your options are:
cower in fear, afraid that you might piss somebody off by protecting yourself so your people are killed & maimed daily, while taking no action.
or
_____ (fill in the blank) -- many of you have claimed Israel and the U.S. have gone about all of this wrong, tell the world what it takes to make the everyone safe from the people who loathe your very existence.
If it reaches that point, my suggestion is you have two militarty choices: either annihilate them, or do not fight. Anything in the middle needs to be the job of international organizations like the UN, but since the Republican Party has done everything they can to destroy the UN and alienate NATO, fat chance of that ever happening.

Diplomatically, you have two choices: either isolate them, or isolate from them.

Last edited by FeelTheLove; 08-03-2006 at 04:18 PM.
FeelTheLove is offline  
post #25 of 54 (permalink) Old 08-03-2006, 04:16 PM Thread Starter
BenzWorld Elite
 
FeelTheLove's Avatar
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: 83 Astral Silver 280 SL
Location: Planet Houston
Posts: 28,829
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
(Thread Starter)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Botnst
Conveniently left out the Malaysia and Peruvian experiences. There are alternatives.

As far as being widely supported, the Sunni Arab insurrection is supported by no more than 20% of the population, the approx proportion of Iraqi Sunnis. Let's just pretend that 100% of the Sunni Arabs support the insurrectionists. Since they are mostly located in just a few provinces, I woul dhardly call that a widely-supported insurrection. On the contrary, the other (wacko) group that is busy killing people is a couple of Shiite groups, and they are NOT targeting the coalition. Who are they targeting? (pause) The Sunni. Since the Shia represent about 60% of the population, lets give that group the same supposed support as the Sunni's--100%. The remainder are mostly Kurds and they got theirs so they don't care whether the Shiites and Sunnis kiss and make up or slaughter each other.

The coalition is now trying to prevent a civil war. Casey (on CNN) just indicated that the situation is close, but not quite civil war.

Given all of that, to equate the evolving circumstance in Iraq, in which we are increasingly playing the role of mediator and policeman rather than combatant, with genocidal wars of conquest is...ludicrous.

B
If I said the percentage of the insurgency was 80%, my figures would be as good as yours, because no one really knows. We are not fighting one insurgentcy, we are fighting the insugencies of three different ideaologies, and the Shiites have already fought us as well, and their Hezbollah sympathies do not bade well for us. BTW, I would bet the Viet Cong never did better than 20%, and they won.
FeelTheLove is offline  
post #26 of 54 (permalink) Old 08-03-2006, 04:50 PM
BenzWorld Elite
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: 95 E300
Location: Inside my head
Posts: 36,850
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 392 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by FeelTheLove
If I said the percentage of the insurgency was 80%, my figures would be as good as yours, because no one really knows. We are not fighting one insurgentcy, we are fighting the insugencies of three different ideaologies, and the Shiites have already fought us as well, and their Hezbollah sympathies do not bade well for us. BTW, I would bet the Viet Cong never did better than 20%, and they won.
let's try it again.

What is the percent of the Iraqi population is Arab Sunni? Go look it up and report back.

What percent of the Iraqi population is Arab Shiite? Go look it up and report back.

What percent of the Iraqi population is Kurdish (also Sunni)? Go look it up and report back.

Would you say everybody in each population is an insurgent, including women and children? Would you say every male, no matter how old or young?

As with any insurgency, the war is won by the side that persists. At this time most of the Shiite in Iraq are leaving the coalition military alone. They have plainly seen taht we are supporting a free and independent Iraq and we are supporting the election of their candidates. The Shiites also comprise the major leadership posts in the police, NG and army. So they know that they have "won."

The way we apparently are going to act as policeman is to again, degrade the Mahdi Army. This time apparently with the Iraqi gov support, since they are behind the coalition moving soldiers into Baghdad. The gamble is that by degrading the Mahdi Army that the Shiite death squads, mostly from Al Sadr's faction which contorls the Mahdi Army, the Iraqi government can control the remainder of the weak Shiite factions. But you already thought of that I'm sure.

Then the Iraqi Army can return to gunning for the insurgents and suppressing the push for regional independence.

if this gamble fails I'm betting that Iraq will disintegrate. Western Iraq will probably align itself with Syria or Jordan, depending on which internal Iraqi Sunni tribes gain ascendency.



B
Botnst is offline  
post #27 of 54 (permalink) Old 08-03-2006, 04:55 PM
DP
Moderator
 
DP's Avatar
 
Date registered: Aug 2002
Vehicle: 190E, 400E, SLK350
Location: Chesapeak Bay
Posts: 64,125
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Quoted: 991 Post(s)
Lifetime Premium Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Botnst
let's try it again.

What is the percent of the Iraqi population is Arab Sunni? Go look it up and report back.

What percent of the Iraqi population is Arab Shiite? Go look it up and report back.

What percent of the Iraqi population is Kurdish (also Sunni)? Go look it up and report back.

Would you say everybody in each population is an insurgent, including women and children? Would you say every male, no matter how old or young?

As with any insurgency, the war is won by the side that persists. At this time most of the Shiite in Iraq are leaving the coalition military alone. They have plainly seen taht we are supporting a free and independent Iraq and we are supporting the election of their candidates. The Shiites also comprise the major leadership posts in the police, NG and army. So they know that they have "won."

The way we apparently are going to act as policeman is to again, degrade the Mahdi Army. This time apparently with the Iraqi gov support, since they are behind the coalition moving soldiers into Baghdad. The gamble is that by degrading the Mahdi Army that the Shiite death squads, mostly from Al Sadr's faction which contorls the Mahdi Army, the Iraqi government can control the remainder of the weak Shiite factions. But you already thought of that I'm sure.

Then the Iraqi Army can return to gunning for the insurgents and suppressing the push for regional independence.

if this gamble fails I'm betting that Iraq will disintegrate. Western Iraq will probably align itself with Syria or Jordan, depending on which internal Iraqi Sunni tribes gain ascendency.



B
"Would you say everybody in each population is an insurgent, including women and children? Would you say every male, no matter how old or young?"
Was that from a US military training manual?
DP is offline  
post #28 of 54 (permalink) Old 08-03-2006, 05:56 PM
GMISBEST.
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)
Quoted: Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Professor
"Would you say everybody in each population is an insurgent, including women and children? Would you say every male, no matter how old or young?"
Was that from a US military training manual?

Remember 911, did they care about us? Kill em all, kill em all
There is only one way to deal with those ayrabs perfessir, ask Boo he knows and then Bot will explain the "history" behind it.
post #29 of 54 (permalink) Old 08-03-2006, 06:01 PM
BenzWorld Elite
 
MBZER's Avatar
 
Date registered: Nov 2005
Vehicle: 560/sel/sec/Jag XJS
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 1,930
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by GMISBEST.
Remember 911, did they care about us? Kill em all, kill em all
There is only one way to deal with those ayrabs perfessir, ask Boo he knows and then Bot will explain the "history" behind it.

Baby P0o & Bot the Twat....ohhh wot a pare !!!!!



MBZER is offline  
post #30 of 54 (permalink) Old 08-03-2006, 06:04 PM
GMISBEST.
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)
Quoted: Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MBZER
Baby P0o & Bot the Twat....ohhh wot a pare !!!!!



MBZER, Rex's tail is in, don't push it!
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

  Mercedes-Benz Forum > General Mercedes-Benz Forums > Off-Topic

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Mercedes-Benz Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











  • Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
     
    Thread Tools
    Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
    Email this Page Email this Page
    Display Modes
    Linear Mode Linear Mode



    Similar Threads
    Topic Author Forum Replies Last Post
    if US invades Pakistan theboss Off-Topic 20 07-18-2007 05:18 AM
    Lebanon Kingorcus General Mercedes-Benz 12 07-14-2006 08:47 AM
    Israel Escalating -- Chem attack to Israel --10:33 mcbear Off-Topic 41 07-01-2006 06:13 AM
    any one from lebanon here??? theboss Off-Topic 16 06-15-2005 05:20 AM
    BMW Invades Vegas DEATHERAGE R170 SLK-Class 3 01-17-2005 05:12 PM

    Posting Rules  
    You may post new threads
    You may post replies
    You may not post attachments
    You may not edit your posts

    BB code is On
    Smilies are On
    [IMG] code is On
    HTML code is Off
    Trackbacks are On
    Pingbacks are On
    Refbacks are On

     

    Title goes here

    close
    video goes here
    description goes here. Read Full Story
    For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome