Was Murtha Right? - Page 5 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #41 of 61 (permalink) Old 08-02-2006, 07:31 PM
BenzWorld Elite
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: 95 E300
Location: Inside my head
Posts: 36,850
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 392 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by FeelTheLove
And it fails when the opposition is deeply motivated and united. It is why we will lose the Iraq War.
You're half-way there.

Failure accrues to the side that flinches.
Botnst is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #42 of 61 (permalink) Old 08-02-2006, 07:33 PM
BenzWorld Elite
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: 95 E300
Location: Inside my head
Posts: 36,850
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 392 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by QBNCGAR
Does this mean the only defense is to stick it out?...
That is way too simplistic. For that reason I deleted your "If so...".

First of all, if one thinks of war in term of defense then one has lost before the confrontation has begun.

B
Botnst is offline  
post #43 of 61 (permalink) Old 08-02-2006, 08:27 PM
BenzWorld Elite
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: 2014 E250 Bluetec 4-Matic, 1983 240D 4-Speed
Location: USA
Posts: 9,257
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Quoted: 256 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by baby boo
My thoughts are that the deliberate killing of civilians is reprehensible. However we should not have a double standard on this like the Arab world. Killing of israeli civilians is equally reprehensible but fails to elicit any outrage among the arabs.

The guilty should be punished.

On both sides.
baby boo,

It is your word selection that makes a your words sound like you are suggesting we should strive to operate at the lowest common denominator of respect for human life that exists in the region we happen to be in, or that the standards for American soldiers is determined by their perception of what is being done by Arabs or Israelis. Which is what is objectionable about your post. America is the example for the rest of the world on human rights and respect for the diversity of human kind. That example cannot be permitted to merely immitate the worst known performers on Earth. And the fact that we are seeing Americans fail to uphold our standards is an indication something is amiss. Which cannot be addressed by deflecting attention to Arabs and Israelis acting savagely.

The original post was about how American military personnel are behaving under conditions that for most of us are unimagninable in terms of stress and fear for one's life. Personally, I am very concerned about reports of Americans losing sight of the effect of their actions precipitated by panic and paranoia, and see no qualifying or moderating conditions on my outlook based on the habits of Israelis or Arabs in this regard. In my mind, and, as I read the whole article describing Murtha's disclosure of his opinion on this matter, in Murtha's opinion, the solution is not to send Americans into conditions where they are the sacrificial anodes to George Bush's war on terror, installed over there so we don't have to deal with them over here. Bring our boys home and this stuff doesn't happen. Jim
JimSmith is offline  
post #44 of 61 (permalink) Old 08-02-2006, 08:36 PM
BenzWorld Elite
 
baby boo's Avatar
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,646
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I don't know how you can possibly read my post quoted above and conclude that I am advocating "the lowest common denominator of respect for human life."

What I explicity said is that the allegations (if true) are reprehensible and should be punished.

My concern is with the double standard with which the arab world views muslim vs "non believer" noncombantant casaulties.

You didn't see any rioting on the streets of Islamabad by barefoot Pakistani mobs when the video was shown of the beheading of Nick Berg, did you?

I'm not asking America to stoop to the level of the arabs from a moral standpoint. I'm asking the arabs to rise to the level of America.

Too much to ask....eh?
baby boo is offline  
post #45 of 61 (permalink) Old 08-02-2006, 09:07 PM
BenzWorld Elite
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: 2014 E250 Bluetec 4-Matic, 1983 240D 4-Speed
Location: USA
Posts: 9,257
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Quoted: 256 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by QBNCGAR
Does this mean the only defense is to stick it out? If so, is it even worthwhile trying to convince the constituency at-large that this is how it's going to end up working (despite the fact that foregoing public explanation results in you and yours being labeled warmongers or idiots or monkey-fuckers or whatever else they can lay on you)?
It is refreshing to see you examining the full spectrum of questions and problems before embracing a specific solution. It is refreshing because the broader viewpoint you are examining seems to include a perspective you previously discounted. It helps that it is closer to "mine" as I would freely acknowledge I would be less impressed if KV began to embrace the other side's perspective. The actual question of "what to do now?" is more difficult to answer when you look at the broader range of possiblities though.

I think the choices looking forward have to consider "lessons learned" so far, which I believe can be boiled down to "don't become involved in elective wars" especially with people from entirely foriegn cultures. Wars must be avoided unless you really have no other choice to survive.

Sounds like something we should all be able to take for granted, but, when you look at how we got into the Iraq quagmire, it is now clear we started this invasion and occupation of Iraq unprovoked and without any real threat to our country. By a President who was eligible to be sent to Vietnam, where America should have learned this lesson with the same horror etched indelibility of the lesson the Germans learned when the horrors of Dachau and Auschwitz and other concentration camps were laid at their feet by a deeply shocked world in public trials of those Germans accused of crimes against humanity. But somehow we got duped into believing our superior technology was sufficiently more superior today than it was during Vietnam that we could reasonably expect to have a clean, cheap adventure in Iraq. There is a real lesson to be learned here. We would be well advised to review how the Germans reacted to their shame.

When your survival is threatened, you do whatever it takes to win. Which would likely be another form of horror for humanity if we were pushed to using nukes. Using standards that prevented war unless it was truly the only way to survive, we would be forced to place more importance on the skills of true diplomats, and spend more time developing and grooming such skills to keep us from these elective wars. Another lesson to be learned - have the skills to bring choices to the table, and stop being so impressed with destructive techno toys. Be more impressed with smarts and hard work. Smarts and hard work are what distinguished America up to this point - including giving us the technical gadgetry and weapons we have fallen in love with - not the arrogance of being a "super power" in a world of suicide bombers and terrorists. Jim
JimSmith is offline  
post #46 of 61 (permalink) Old 08-02-2006, 09:16 PM
Administratoris Emeritus
 
GeeS's Avatar
 
Date registered: Aug 2002
Vehicle: 2021 SL770
Location: Fountain Hills, AZ
Posts: 44,915
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Quoted: 591 Post(s)
Jim, you may want to start ending your posts with "©2006 JimSmith", in the event of another MBZER raid down the road.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
GeeS is offline  
post #47 of 61 (permalink) Old 08-02-2006, 09:22 PM
BenzWorld Elite
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: 2014 E250 Bluetec 4-Matic, 1983 240D 4-Speed
Location: USA
Posts: 9,257
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Quoted: 256 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by baby boo
I don't know how you can possibly read my post quoted above and conclude that I am advocating "the lowest common denominator of respect for human life."

What I explicity said is that the allegations (if true) are reprehensible and should be punished.

My concern is with the double standard with which the arab world views muslim vs "non believer" noncombantant casaulties.

You didn't see any rioting on the streets of Islamabad by barefoot Pakistani mobs when the video was shown of the beheading of Nick Berg, did you?

I'm not asking America to stoop to the level of the arabs from a moral standpoint. I'm asking the arabs to rise to the level of America.

Too much to ask....eh?
No, not too much to ask, just not a subject that has a context in relation to Americans being accused of murdering women and children in a country we invaded under false pretenses and now claim to be bringing the joys of democracy to, while we instigate a brutal civil war.

My point is Americans are not Israelis or Arabs. The standards of American behavior and respect for human life have no relationship to any of this Arab-Israeli insanity. Adding your phrase, "however, we should not have a double standard" after your previous statement declaring your view that the behavior in the accusations is reprehensible, qualifies your judgement based on some Arab-Israeli interactions you apparently find an equal or greater priority to address. These two concerns are not related as I see them, and have no place in the same paragraph linked by that conditional statement.

American troops can be held, and should be held, to a standard that has no bearing on Arabs and Israelis having lower or no standards, by America. When our men and women are put in situations for years on end that enable them to act the way they have been accused, it is time to reconsider what we, the Americans, are doing sending them over there to become unable to honor our history of being different, being America, while the world around us is whatever it is. It is not time to get distracted by Jews and Arabs killing each other. Jim

Last edited by JimSmith; 08-02-2006 at 09:27 PM.
JimSmith is offline  
post #48 of 61 (permalink) Old 08-02-2006, 09:27 PM
BenzWorld Elite
 
baby boo's Avatar
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,646
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Is this a serious reply on your part or just an exercise in rhetoric?

What exactly do you find morally ambiguous about the statement "the allegations (if true) are reprehensible and should be punished."?????
baby boo is offline  
post #49 of 61 (permalink) Old 08-02-2006, 09:37 PM
BenzWorld Elite
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: 2014 E250 Bluetec 4-Matic, 1983 240D 4-Speed
Location: USA
Posts: 9,257
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Quoted: 256 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by baby boo
Is this a serious reply on your part or just an exercise in rhetoric?

What exactly do you find morally ambiguous about the statement "the allegations (if true) are reprehensible and should be punished."?????
Maybe your next sentence was just poorly constructed. In that case, maybe your judgement, which I have no objection to, is not supposed to be moderated by some Israeli-Arab issue you brought up. I read your entire post to mean the Israeli-Arab killings are a higher priority for Americans to address than the circumstances of the accusations made against Americans. And I found that objectionable.

As an American, I believe that Jews and Arabs endlessly murdering each other for no apparent reason is an issue to be addressed by the Arab people involved and the Israeli people. Americans should hold the behavior of American soldiers to American standards, and keep their noses clean before sticking them into other people's business. Nothing worse than having someone preaching to you who is unable to live up to the words they are preaching. It just sounds like insincere bullshit. Jim
JimSmith is offline  
post #50 of 61 (permalink) Old 08-02-2006, 09:47 PM
BenzWorld Elite
 
baby boo's Avatar
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,646
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
That was not my meaning Jim and I have absolutely no quarrel with your statement that American actions should be judged in isolation and by America's historical standards (or at least ideals). I can state without reservation that I find the slaughter of innocent people to be absolutely reprehensible and that the guilty parties should punished according to law. There is absolutely no linkage here.

As an aside I would like to see the Arab world held to a higher standard as well. That may not have been your point but it is mine.
baby boo is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

  Mercedes-Benz Forum > General Mercedes-Benz Forums > Off-Topic

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Mercedes-Benz Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











  • Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
     
    Thread Tools
    Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
    Email this Page Email this Page
    Display Modes
    Linear Mode Linear Mode



    Similar Threads
    Topic Author Forum Replies Last Post
    Congressmen Murtha accuses marines of war crime -- is he nuts? or just plain spoken? guage Off-Topic 328 03-17-2014 06:25 PM
    John Murtha Must Go Jayhawk Off-Topic 90 06-22-2006 06:25 PM
    Murtha again demands withdrawl from Iraq FeelTheLove Off-Topic 9 01-16-2006 06:22 PM
    Text of speech made by Rep. John Murtha, calling for US withdrawal from Iraq FeelTheLove Off-Topic 6 11-19-2005 12:40 AM

    Posting Rules  
    You may post new threads
    You may post replies
    You may not post attachments
    You may not edit your posts

    BB code is On
    Smilies are On
    [IMG] code is On
    HTML code is Off
    Trackbacks are On
    Pingbacks are On
    Refbacks are On

     

    Title goes here

    close
    video goes here
    description goes here. Read Full Story
    For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome