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post #171 of 470 (permalink) Old 07-31-2006, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Botnst
Satellite data is not probably geosynchronous. Folks shuffle stuff in and out when the satellites are over the horizon. One of Clancey's movies did a thing about that. The one with the Irish terrorists.

Satellites have a big footprint with coarse resolution. Aircraft, expecially drones, have a small footprint and high resolution. The photo/data interpreter looks at the images and gives his best guess, given the time constraint. It goes to his boss for review and then to a committee that recommends targets that sends the package to some general who assigns targets based on capabilities and assets and their proximity. It's all a big hurry because your soldiers depend on timeliness for effectiveness.

The chain has some checks and balances but not many. Checks and balances create time delays and that degrades effectiveness.

See where this is going?

I'm betting the Israelis screwed-up and are ducking for propaganda cover while simultaneously trying to learn the truth. This is where we enter the "fog of war." Which truth we believe probably depends on which side we favor. There will likely not be definitive, objective truth.

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How romantic, but at who's expense?
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post #172 of 470 (permalink) Old 07-31-2006, 02:23 PM
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One wonders what the outcome of WWII would have been had CNN and 24 news coverage been around to document every single civilian casaulty in real time, keep a body count, interview the relatives of the deceased etc. etc.

I guess we would have foillowed the example for France: put up a weak fight for 6 weeks and then surrender to the axis powers.
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post #173 of 470 (permalink) Old 07-31-2006, 02:26 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by baby boo
One wonders what the outcome of WWII would have been had CNN and 24 news coverage been around to document every single civilian casaulty in real time, keep a body count, interview the relatives of the deceased etc. etc.

I guess we would have foillowed the example for France: put up a weak fight for 6 weeks and then surrender to the axis powers.
I agree, the entire concept of war has changed since the media started covering it closely.

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post #174 of 470 (permalink) Old 07-31-2006, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by baby boo
One wonders what the outcome of WWII would have been had CNN and 24 news coverage been around to document every single civilian casaulty in real time, keep a body count, interview the relatives of the deceased etc. etc.

I guess we would have foillowed the example for France: put up a weak fight for 6 weeks and then surrender to the axis powers.
It's called evolution to a civilized being and I sure hope that we all get more information so we can stop this insanity. I know many would be happy with suppressing what goes on so they can fill in the blank any way they want to. Should we also stop communicating with Silver Arrow and Shebl because it would undermine the "truth"?
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post #175 of 470 (permalink) Old 07-31-2006, 02:28 PM
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How romantic, but at who's expense?
As in all wars through history, the civilians will pay the highest price.
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post #176 of 470 (permalink) Old 07-31-2006, 02:32 PM
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As in all wars through history, the civilians will pay the highest price.
We are doomed as a specie if we keep letting history be written by wars and misery.
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post #177 of 470 (permalink) Old 07-31-2006, 02:36 PM
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We are doomed as a specie if we keep letting history be written by wars and misery.
Drew
I see no indication in any of recorded history that there has been an iota of natural selection impact favoring pacifism.
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post #178 of 470 (permalink) Old 07-31-2006, 02:40 PM
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I see no indication in any of recorded history that there has been an iota of natural selection impact favoring pacifism.
Then it is no longer a question of averting doom, it just about when we should brace ourselves for it
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post #179 of 470 (permalink) Old 07-31-2006, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Professor
It's called evolution to a civilized being and I sure hope that we all get more information so we can stop this insanity. I know many would be happy with suppressing what goes on so they can fill in the blank any way they want to. Should we also stop communicating with Silver Arrow and Shebl because it would undermine the "truth"?
Come on Professor, you must have read Kuhn's "Structure of Scientific Revolutions" somewhere along the way. Let's quote him a little:

" the scientific paradigms before and after a paradigm shift are so different that their theories are incomparable. The paradigm shift does not just change a single theory, it changes the way that words are defined, the way that the scientists look at their subject and, perhaps most importantly, the questions that are considered valid and the rules used to determine the truth of a particular theory."

Kuhn observes that they are incommensurable — literally, lacking comparison, untranslatable. New theories were not, as they had thought of before, simply extensions of old theories, but radically new worldviews. This incommensurability applies not just before and after a paradigm shift, but between conflicting paradigms. That is where we are now. The US, in it's ill-advised actions in Iraq, has given the revolutionary and most violent factions in the Middle East the upper hand in a type of warfare that the Bushs and the Botnsts of the world don't even want to understand yet, which our enemies, to our detriment, very much do.

Suppose we call this type of war being waged by Hezbollah and Iraqi insurgents "fourth generation war". If the theory of "fourth generation war" is viewed as a new paradigm (and it seems to me to meet the criteria) then this is more than just a failure of perception on the part of neoconservatives, it is impossible for them to perceive it.

"Though each may hope to convert the other to his way of seeing science and its problems, neither may hope to prove his case. The competition between paradigms is not the sort of battle that can be resolved by proof........It is simply not possible to construct an impartial language that can be used to perform a neutral comparison between conflicting paradigms, because the very terms used belong within the paradigm and are therefore different in different paradigms."
" (SSR, p. 148).'

This is why , it is literally impossibile to explain the fundamentally counterproductive nature of the United State's invasion of Iraq, or Israel's pummeling of what's left of Lebanon, to those who disagree. Botnst, guage, all these people are literally incapable of getting it. What they see has "winning" is the surest way to lose, not because of old-fashioned strategic differences, but because the entire nature of what a "loss" is has changed. The bad news is that the policy-makers of the United States and Israel apparently don't get the new paradigm, and the bad news is that Hezbollah (and now it's Iraqi clones, and eventually the Iranians and Syrians, if they become successful at getting the US to invade them) do. The new paradigm allows for a more effective understanding of reality, and these people simply are not ready for a world where the entire concept of struggle between the haves and have nots of this planet is about to be fundementally altered forever.

Last edited by FeelTheLove; 07-31-2006 at 03:05 PM.
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post #180 of 470 (permalink) Old 07-31-2006, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Professor
It's called evolution to a civilized being and I sure hope that we all get more information so we can stop this insanity. I know many would be happy with suppressing what goes on so they can fill in the blank any way they want to. Should we also stop communicating with Silver Arrow and Shebl because it would undermine the "truth"?
Curtail the savagery of war, and it only makes it more palatable. Either dive in and get it over with or stay home because you fear the alternative. At the risk of coming across as a major nerd, there was an excellent episode of the original Star Trek that dealt with that very issue -- two advanced societies locked in endless combat because they had effectively eliminated the savagery of warfare.

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