"I'm a Muslim American; I'm angry at Israel" - Page 11 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #101 of 167 (permalink) Old 08-01-2006, 01:19 AM
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Could it be the same reason that made them do Qana 1 , IN 1996 and kill 110 civilian in the UN Office ? ? ?

......and that reason would be........?
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post #102 of 167 (permalink) Old 08-01-2006, 07:37 AM
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Hum, GermanStar & Silverarrow. I have not seen any news agency report that Israel fired missiles into Lebanon first. Everything I have seen or listen too, CNN, public radio, BBC, Deutsche Welle, have all said that Hezbollah was firing missiles into northern Israel and Israel was not returning fire until the solders were captured. Which I personally believe was initially to start the war. I also believe that Hezbollah held the people in the building that was bombed yesterday. To purposely cause their death and outrage.

Here is an interesting article from Deutsche Welle:
Israel Was Massively Provoked"
Großansicht des Bildes mit der Bildunterschrift: Stürmer: Hezbolla knew what would happend when they kidnapped the Israeli soldiers
German historian Michael Stürmer talked to DW-WORLD.DE about Israel's motivations behind the attacks on Hezbollah strongholds in Lebanon, the background of the conflict, and what the recent crisis could mean for Germany.

Michael Stürmer is one of Germany's best-known historians. He teaches at the University of Erlangen and has written extensively on the Middle East conflict, including co-editing a book, called "Allies Divided. Atlantic Security and the Greater Middle East."

DW-WORLD.DE: Israel's attack is being viewed by many as offensive instead of defensive. Is that the case, in your opinion?

Bildunterschrift: Großansicht des Bildes mit der Bildunterschrift: The militant Hamas is a pan-Arab movement set on revolution
Michael Stürmer: The Israeli attack was not an unprovoked one. There were two very deliberate, focused attacks and both the Hamas leadership and Hezbollah leadership know extremely well that Israel's defense forces don't leave their own people alive or dead in the lurch. This is only the primer. What we see on the television screen is only the foreground.

In the background you have a much more complicated problem -- a real Gordian knot of problems.

One is that Hamas is a much wider pan-Arab movement -- as opposed to Fatah, which is a Palestinian nationalist movement. It's a revolutionary movement which is not only directed against Israel as a state, but also against the regimes in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, etc. Hamas is backed up from Tehran and maybe also from other parts of the Arab world. Hezbollah is also backed from Tehran and Syria. Both Tehran and Syria play a very important role in it.

Do you think that Israel had alternatives to a military attack?

Bildunterschrift: Großansicht des Bildes mit der Bildunterschrift: "Here I am at your service Mohammed" read the bandanas of Hezbollah marchers
All the wise, great and the good tell you that diplomacy is the answer. If your people are taken away, shot, bombed, and blown up -- then diplomacy obviously isn't very helpful. Israel is a democracy. They have to do something. They have to show the people that the state protects them and that the Israeli defense forces are not there just for show but for real. Israel was massively provoked. They have held back for a long time and they've withdrawn from Gaza. (Prime Minister Ehud) Olmert has announced that they will also withdraw from large parts of the West Bank, which makes sense and is more or less inevitable.

What we have now is that the Hamas leadership is trying to keep Israel within this hornet's nest called Gaza in order to bleed Israel and revolutionize the Middle East in the Hamas sense. This is a very old pattern. It occurred in Europe; it's occurring in the Middle East. You have a revolutionary, trans-national movement transcending the state structure and this is precisely what Hamas wants. Sacrificing a few hundred or a few thousand civilians doesn't matter at all. These are nihilistic people pretending to do the work of Allah.

Germany has traditionally been very pro-Israel, in part due to its history with the Jews, but also prefers dialogue over military action. Do you think Germany feels obligated to support Israel because of traditional ties?

Bildunterschrift: Großansicht des Bildes mit der Bildunterschrift: Ehud Omert's (l) Israel will eventually require US support, Stürmer said
Every reasonable person, including the government of Israel, prefers dialogue over action. But what if dialogue leads you nowhere? Or what if dialogue means you just have to suffer very heavy blows? Germany is in the lurch. We have always gone through the EU in unpleasant things concerning the Middle East, whereas in the bilateral relationship we've always been very much pro-Israel.

Nowadays, we are of two minds. On the one hand, we are giving -- and partly selling -- to Israel the only submarines they have. On the other hand, we are very fussy about ball-bearings for the Merkava 4 tanks. I cannot really see a clear line from the Berlin government. When it comes to words, we are very pro-Israel. When it comes to practical deeds, we are not so helpful. We do cooperate in research and development, from agriculture to high-tech. What will happen if this war of low intensity develops into a very hot, fast-moving war? If Israel comes to the end of its military sustainability very soon, God only knows what will happen. Then it's up to the Americans.
Israel's new government is short on war experience. How long will the country be able to hold out?

Bildunterschrift: Großansicht des Bildes mit der Bildunterschrift: Michael Stürmer
The Israelis have endured and have supported this kind of thing for many years, indeed. When they invaded Lebanon in 1982 they stayed there for 18 years altogether. But there were strings attached when they withdrew. One condition was, you don't fire cartouches into northern Israel and we don't invade. This silent agreement was never a written one but there was a clear understanding and it was also supported by Egypt and others. This has been broken in a very massive way. Everybody on the Hezbollah side knew what would happen if they hijacked Israeli soldiers and killed people.
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post #103 of 167 (permalink) Old 08-01-2006, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Robschaef
Hum, GermanStar & Silverarrow. I have not seen any news agency report that Israel fired missiles into Lebanon first. Everything I have seen or listen too, CNN, public radio, BBC, Deutsche Welle, have all said that Hezbollah was firing missiles into northern Israel and Israel was not returning fire until the solders were captured. Which I personally believe was initially to start the war. I also believe that Hezbollah held the people in the building that was bombed yesterday. To purposely cause their death and outrage.
1. Hezbollah raid kills several Israeli soldiers; they capture/kidnap two additional soldiers
2. Israel retaliates by bombing the living shit out of Lebanon
3. Hezbollah retaliates with their rockets

Of course, 1,000 other events transpired before number one, so each side is certain the other started it and that their actions are completely justified.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #104 of 167 (permalink) Old 08-01-2006, 08:05 AM
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Support our country, our troops or move to a country where you worry have to worry whether you will be around the next day.
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post #105 of 167 (permalink) Old 08-01-2006, 08:08 AM
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Are you in Israel or Lebanon? Or is it just too early in the morning for you to understand the topic?

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #106 of 167 (permalink) Old 08-01-2006, 08:10 AM
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post #107 of 167 (permalink) Old 08-01-2006, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robschaef
Hum, GermanStar & Silverarrow. I have not seen any news agency report that Israel fired missiles into Lebanon first. Everything I have seen or listen too, CNN, public radio, BBC, Deutsche Welle, have all said that Hezbollah was firing missiles into northern Israel and Israel was not returning fire until the solders were captured. Which I personally believe was initially to start the war. I also believe that Hezbollah held the people in the building that was bombed yesterday. To purposely cause their death and outrage.
When you live the events each second of each day, you know what’s going on.
I second GS on the sequence he just gave.

As for hezbollah holding these people in the building, I was thinking, maybe it was also a Hezbollah member you crossed into Israel, stole an Israeli fighter jet, flew with it and bombed the building while other members held the people hostage. You have quite a science-fiction imagination.

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post #108 of 167 (permalink) Old 08-01-2006, 09:23 AM
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When you live the events each second of each day, you know what’s going on.
This is not where I'd be spending my time.
post #109 of 167 (permalink) Old 08-01-2006, 10:15 AM
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When you live the events each second of each day, you know what’s going on.
.......
Well civilians in northern Israel are also living the "events each day" and they might have a different perspective on it.
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post #110 of 167 (permalink) Old 08-01-2006, 10:20 AM
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Alleged gunmen share similarities
Haq, Huff called loners, desperately wanted to fit in

By SCOTT GUTIERREZ
P-I REPORTER

They came from vastly different backgrounds.

But Naveed Haq, accused of killing one woman and wounding five others in the Jewish Federation offices on Friday, shared several similarities with the man who targeted Seattle's rave community earlier this year in a mass slaying on Capitol Hill.
Haq
Haq

In March, Kyle Huff, 28, armed himself with several weapons and blasted his way through an after-hours house party, killing six people, wounding two others and then turning his shotgun on himself. A letter apparently penned by Huff and found after his death described his mission to stand up against what he saw as a rave culture that was corrupting the world.

Huff was a pizza deliveryman from Montana who wore long hair. Haq lived in the Tri-Cities and held an engineering degree. He was born to Pakistani parents and raised under Islam.
Huff
Huff

But both men had trouble staying employed, meeting friends or girlfriends and have been described as loners or outcasts who desperately wanted to fit in.

Haq, who reportedly battled mental illness and had expressed frustrations about his life to friends, may have been at a low just as the conflict between Israel and Lebanon erupted, giving him something to blame. Haq declared during his assault that he was a Muslim American angry at Israel.

A panel commissioned by the Seattle Police Department analyzed Huff's case and reached a conclusion that Huff may have channeled frustrations about his life into a sudden fixation with the rave scene, in which he initially sought out companionship.

"If you're employed and you have friends and are doing well, these types of issues don't get to you the same. Everybody's lives have good stuff and bad stuff and hopefully the good things outweigh the bad," said James Alan Fox, a criminal justice professor at Northeastern University who led the panel looking at Huff and whose research specializes in mass murders.

Haq, who was not described by others as a devout Muslim, suddenly had a political agenda with the conflict in Lebanon and Israel, Fox said.

"This war happened now. Six months ago, (Haq) may have had a lot of issues in his life, but he didn't have this precipitant -- this war in the Middle East to get him all riled up," Fox said.

On Monday, family and friends gathered to remember Pam Waechter, who was killed in Friday's shooting spree. Five of the victims still were hospitalized. Two, Layla Bush and Christina Rexroad, were in serious condition in intensive care at Harborview Medical Center. Another, Cheryl Stumbo, had improved to satisfactory condition, the hospital reported.

There was no word on the conditions of Danya Klein and Carol Goldman.

Haq remained in custody Monday with bail set at $50 million. Prosecutors still are reviewing his case and expect to file charges Wednesday.

His parents, Mian and Nahida, said through an attorney that they "could not have imagined for a moment that our son would do this senseless act. This is utterly contrary to our beliefs and Islamic values. We have always believed and practiced in fostering love, peace and harmony with everyone, irrespective of religion, race and ethnicity."

Unlike Huff, who shot himself when a Seattle police officer confronted him, Haq surrendered to police after speaking with 911 dispatchers.

"Not everyone has the nerve to kill themselves. And he may also feel in his head or mind that he can rant and rave from a jail cell or witness stand a lot more effectively than from the grave," Fox said.

Over the past few years, Haq reportedly struggled with mental illness and an inability to find his own identity. Although he had a degree, he bounced between unskilled jobs.

Despite his Islamic upbringing, he studied the Bible and was baptized in a Christian church last year. His erratic behavior, and the shooting rampage, left friends grasping for answers

Haq's criminal record has no serious convictions, although he was charged recently in Kennewick with lewd conduct.

His attorney on that case, Larry Stephenson, said Monday that Haq had been diagnosed with bipolar disorder, a condition marked by drastic mood and behavioral swings, and had been taking medication.

"His parents have tried real hard to help him, make sure he's taking his medication," he said.

Stephenson said Haq's mother urged her son last week not to go to Seattle. He'd had bad luck in Seattle and she wanted to keep tabs on him.

"It's every parent's nightmare to have this happen, when your son is mentally ill. They've spent a small fortune helping him get OK, all to no avail," Stephenson said.

Bipolar disorder affects one-half to 1 percent of the general population and is much less common and more likely to be disabling than depression, said Wayne Katon, a psychiatry professor at the University of Washington.

Bipolar patients typically hit highs that can last for days when they feel on top of the world, like they can accomplish anything.

But at their low point of the cycle, they become depressed, agitated and often begin to feel hopeless and helpless, like the world is coming to end, Katon said. Most patients seek treatment because they can't endure the low part of the cycle.

He said people with bipolar disorder can become delusional, believing they are the U.S. president or Jesus Christ. Their behavior sometimes leads to encounters with police, but rarely is the disorder associated with this type of crime, he said.

"It's very, very unusual for bipolars to be killing anybody, let alone five or six people. Data would suggest that in terms of violence, the homicide rate of bipolars is lower than the general population," he said.

"The truth is we don't understand this kind of behavior in people," he said. "It could be bipolar (disorder) is one element of this, but it's probably not the only element."
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