Give hope to the crippled, the blind, the lame? F**k em says Bush. - Page 5 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #41 of 54 (permalink) Old 07-20-2006, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Jayhawk
Ya, it is great isn't it? He is solid as a rock!
That should be THICK as a ROCK! But you were close. He has about as much chance as being rated with the guys on Mount Rushmore as I do playing first string Power Forward for the Lakers at 54.

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post #42 of 54 (permalink) Old 07-20-2006, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by QBNCGAR
Yes, if you believe in a diety. I know it's a huge leap here, and seeing this point of view requires a demonstration of empathy and compassion that appears wholly absent from the militant liberals who have charred this topic with their uninformed idiocy.

Just for a moment, imagine that the country was founded and has been run for 230 years by vast groups of men who believe in God and Judeo-Christian ethics...

The life of a child, therefore, is one of the most precious items to people of this background because they represent pure innocence and cannot defend themselves. Thou shalt not kill...doubly so for children, so it can be surmised.

In those circumstances, it would be unthinkable to force taxpayers to subsidize the 'recycling' of viable unborn humans - no matter how undesirable they might be - just to further what will ultimately result in private commercial gain (albeit with a potential for great medical advancements).

If our government were performing the research and offering the treatments to the "crippled, blind, and lame", perhaps this would be a different discussion. However, we aren't a communist collective (despite the San Franciscan's most ambitious dreams)...fortunately we've been taught by example that socialized medicine is more impractical and likely to fail those who need it most than our own flawed medicine system. Free boob jobs, but 3 month waits for dialysis. No wonder Canadians and europeans flock to the USA for treatments.

Instead, we have this really amazing precept called capitalism and the free market. I'm fairly certain that lots of gigantic drug companies can find the dollars to fund research into stem cells without government assistance if the promise of curing cancer, etc. are tangible. What is at issue here isn't whether or not the US allows stem cell research - Bush opened this door. What he's done is refuse to pay for viable embryos to be recycled for commercial gain. You can disagree if you wish, but there's a 230+ year history of founders and leaders in this country (not to mention hundreds of millions of other people of faith) who take issue - some quietly, some loudly - with the concept of government funded human recycling.

So, to the Left Lisping Regulars who think that Bush used his first ever veto to stick it to the handicapped, I offer the largest ever "F U C K Y O U."

So did GOD give these scientists the ability to figure out this Stem Cell Thing? What, he made them smart enough to figure it out? He gave the Congress the sense to vote for it? Could that be? So GOD helped the Scientists develop the technology and GOD guided the Congress to vote for it but he told Bush something different? You know Bush does not have a great track record of getting messages from GOD right.

And yes, Bush DID stick it to the Handicapped. He does not have a Fn clue about science.

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post #43 of 54 (permalink) Old 07-20-2006, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by QBNCGAR
I read shit like this from shit like you, and I wonder if you actually feel any pain from being in your condition. Does it hurt to be so incapable of seeing another side that you have to resort to wishing ill upon my children when presented with it?

I'm not sure if anyone else has indicated that you've engaged in an attack on them, but it certainly doesn't get much more flagrant than that in my book.

This thread, and this entire forum, are sopping wet with perpetually liberal, anti-conservative, blame-Bush-for-everything, rarely cogent yet occasionally well-written extremist points of view - so much so that any dissent is met with personal attacks (again, the hallmark of the liberal who is out of smarter people's opinions to parrot). My ability to stomach it has been steadily declining - it's like a poison to me. Welcome to my ignore list you sick, sick individual.
I don't believe that remarks that want ill will toward anyone is necessary. It does nothing but inflame. That is how some folks argue.

Anytime you have a thread on this subject, or most any on our OT, it is going to be polarizing Left and Right. From my perspective we have three types of people on this forum. We have about a third that are extreme Right and never budge from that focus, no matter what. We have about a third Left that are the same way. We also have about a third in the middle that move around, Left on some issues and Right on the others, sometimes very much so on one issue or another. I have found that someone that I might be driving me nuts on one thread is right in line with me on another. It is what makes this so much fun. The trick here is that this is RECREATION ONLY. No ones passions should make you head to the Nitro [either the little pills or the big box in the storage building]

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post #44 of 54 (permalink) Old 07-20-2006, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by QBNCGAR
I'm not gone yet....you still have Jayhawk, Botnst seems more moderate-conservative...McBear is one of those libertarian-types who I have as much trouble reading as a blind person would a textured wall , so he kinda counts as like 1/2...Prana seemed well grounded, too. I dunno who else is out there though.

Conservatives of the board, Unite!
That's OK, I can't figure me out either. I need help with that.

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post #45 of 54 (permalink) Old 07-20-2006, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by GermanStar
Libertarian is very easy to read -- but then I suppose I believe that because according to Libertarians and their silly tests, I pretty much pin the needle: fiscal conservative/social liberal. IOW, let everyone do whatever the hell they want as long as they don't infringe on anyone else's rights or cost me money.
I don't even care if it costs me money. I know it is impossible to be a social liberal without spending money which means taxes. I would just prefer that they got someone who had a brain to figure out where to spend the taxes. We need an 80 year old Scottish woman to spend the National Treasury. That would solve all economics. I would be happy to loan out my mom. Someone else can drive her around for a bit. I personally believe she and her two sisters bankrupted MCI with their constant attempt to get free calling plans.

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post #46 of 54 (permalink) Old 07-20-2006, 06:42 PM
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I don't even care if it costs me money. I know it is impossible to be a social liberal without spending money which means taxes.
It's not impossible -- it's just a matter of priorities.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #47 of 54 (permalink) Old 07-20-2006, 06:59 PM
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It's not impossible -- it's just a matter of priorities.
Well, you have to have some money or a real good volunteer / tax credit system going.

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post #48 of 54 (permalink) Old 07-20-2006, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by mcbear
So did GOD give these scientists the ability to figure out this Stem Cell Thing? What, he made them smart enough to figure it out? He gave the Congress the sense to vote for it? Could that be? So GOD helped the Scientists develop the technology and GOD guided the Congress to vote for it but he told Bush something different? You know Bush does not have a great track record of getting messages from GOD right.

And yes, Bush DID stick it to the Handicapped. He does not have a Fn clue about science.
Well for one, those aren't my beliefs. The question was "Is [government funded use of viable embryos for stem-cell research] any different than recycling?" My answer was, as you read, "Yes, if you believe in a diety." The Bush-whacking was pretty fervent here, which largely seemed to be taking place without regard for the views of our God-fearing president (and indeed, many other Americans). He acted, predictably, in line with his moral beliefs, and did so unequivocally. Leadership often polarizes, since it rarely treads the middle ground or takes the easy path.

I don't begrudge those who disagree, but it's unfair to label the man an idiot. He's a graduate of ivy league schools who has governed some of the world's largest constituencies (i.e. Texas, and the broader USA) - he's surrounded by a veritable dream-team of educated individuals (the occasional stinker notwithstanding). Smart people don't work for idiots...anyone who has spent time in business management will understand the truth of this.

People here should be encouraged to demonstrate their intellect - I simply challenge people who claim to be liberal (which usually implies empathetic) to empathise with the man who made the decision and see that point of view - not agree with it, but understand it. From that point of view, "human recycling" is a precept that is repulsive. He didn't say that it was without scientific benefit, he just refused to put America into that business in any fashion , and I agree - I don't think the government has any place in medicine, as I've yet to hear of a large government who has successfully delivered timely, quality medical services to the masses.

We don't live in a communist state - not everyone is incented to go through years and years of medical school at a cost approaching hundreds of thousands of dollars so that they can serve "Mother Merka" for free. Being a successful health provider means you can provide yourself and your family an above-average lifestyle - I think our economy and health care system should continue to incent that, rather than dissuade people from becoming caregivers, so that the quality of our health care system isn't compromised any more than it has already been.

Back to this topic, there are already companies and hospitals piloting stem-cell treatments. They've done so in accordance with the law, and successfully. You can get stem cells from your own nose for Chrissake - those cells have helped to restore very limited sensation and animation in quadriplegics (combined with boatloads of physical therapy). There's obviously a lot of promise and progress to be had, without "recycling" what can be seen as either discardable tissue or unborn humans.

If science is able to demonstrate the point in time at which "life", e.g. some slight cognative function and/or the ability to feel pain, perhaps this decision gets easier for those without Ph.D's. Until that time, it can't be discounted that life may begin at creation.

Regarding the refrigerator comment, that's pretty humorous. I think there have been people prosecuted for murder for attacking the mother of an unborn child which later dies - so, by that precedent, a faulty fridge may simply be a case of manslaughter or an industrial accident. There is far too much that remains unknown for this to be a simple black & white decision - calling out the Pres for making this call based on his beliefs isn't really grounded - it's like calling out someone for having a different opinion on their favorite baseball team, just with higher stakes.
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post #49 of 54 (permalink) Old 07-20-2006, 11:44 PM
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Originally Posted by QBNCGAR
.... The question was "Is [government funded use of viable embryos for stem-cell research] any different than recycling?" My answer was, as you read, "Yes, if you believe in a diety." The Bush-whacking ...
Some of "Bush-whackers" might find the idea of the President being a "God-fearing" kind of guy, having "God-fearing" principles guiding his thoughts ok, if he kept them to himself. The country is not intended by the Constitution, to be governed by the principles of any particular religious belief, even if that strain of religion happens to occupy the White House. When the nation is being limited by one person's infection of religious strain of thought, there really isn't a Constitutional precedent or endorsement. The President can refrain from participating in either embrionic stem cell research, or partaking of any cures of any diseases he may contract or develop that were developed from such research. But imposing his religious beliefs on the rest of the population is not what some of us believe is a strict reading of the Constitution.

And then there is the general belief by many of us that Bush is about as deeply religious as guana. It is a Karl Rove generated persona based on those intrusive phone survey and sales questions he conducted early in his career, to specifically gain the implicit trust of some very easily controlled people. An occasional speech or, in this case a veto that will ultimately be overcome, is not very costly to him and look how it rallies the base.

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Originally Posted by QBNCGAR
I don't begrudge ... Smart people don't work for idiots...anyone who has spent time in business management will understand the truth of this.
I am not sure the skill set of the people he has surrounded himself with, which may in fact be a very smart crew, is suited to running the country. A genius at playing guitar is not a shoo-in for doing Nobel Prize work in Physics, for example. Another truth in business management suggests after really stinking a job up that cost the company lots of money and proved to be started for invalid reasons, based on flawed data or dishonest manipulations of data, also usually costs the CEO and his staff their jobs.
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People here should be encouraged to demonstrate their intellect - I simply challenge people who claim to be liberal ...I don't think the government has any place in medicine, as I've yet to hear of a large government who has successfully delivered timely, quality medical services to the masses.
The term "human recycling" is repugnant. But the government, our government has a role in medicine. The regulation of the medical industry is a vital function. As is the role of the National Institutes of Health, directing with funded grants, the development of viable paths to cures for various illnesses. I think the difference in your perception of where the industry is with regard to implementing a stem cell cure for anything, and mine, might explain some of the difference of opinion. When put in the frame of reference that the government is funding development of technology to allow corporations to get rich farming human embryos for stem cells, the perception of the technology and the government's role is less deserving of support. That, however, is not how those of us who generally support the technology view the role of the government or the role of the pharmaceutical companies likely to bring the cures to the medical industry.

In general, cheesy little medical products like viagra or heart valves, or anything even slightly higher tech require a huge investment over many years to arrive at even an approach to being medically successful. Another enormous investment is required to prove the technology or eventual product "first, does no harm" and then provides a significantly improved quality of life to the afflicted patients before it can become commercially viable. At the present time embrionic stem cell research is still somewhat science fiction-like as the basics are not understood and far from being "manipulable" to make cures for the various organ and tissue destroying diseases that afflict humans, from newborns to old senile turds like me.

The NIH has a role helping these "long shots" along, with funding, especially when the costs and availability of "ingredients" would clearly favor only one or very few big companies in the development path otherwise. That leads to no competition and bad business as well as, usually, bad medicine. The NIH has no role commercializing the "cures" that result. In fact the NIH and the government agencies with a role in this at all would be guilty of a conflict of interest if they participated in manufacturing a cure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by QBNCGAR
We don't live in a communist state - ...
I might or might not agree with this if I could figure out how it applied to embrionic stem cell research.
Quote:
Originally Posted by QBNCGAR
Back to this topic,..You can get stem cells from your own nose ...
This appears to be a popular concept from those who oppose the embrionic stem cell research on all fronts. I think if you really bother to read up, the stuff in your nose is not what you think it is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by QBNCGAR
...Until that time, it can't be discounted that life may begin at creation.
This is a difficult question, however, it is made a more difficult question if you "default" to the precept that when the sperm gets through the outer layer of the egg, the wonder of life has started. It is a less difficult question if you default to the precept that the wonder of life starts when the baby emerges from the womb and cries.

I am not sure what good it does to sustain the argument - it is apparent the rest of nature has different standard for different life forms, and in the animal world, it seems "normal" for carnivores to eat the unborn (eggs in nests) or just born preferentially. That is because Mother Nature makes it clear that meal can be had with the least risk. It is also clear that once a newborn exhibits the normal ability to survive, Mother Nature provides protection and sustenance in the form of some kind of parents or natural advantage in a specific environment. It should be apparent this is done to ensure survival of the species.

I am always amazed to see humans believing they are somehow not similarly programmed by Mother Nature. Like global warming caused by humans is somehow less natural than some mountain splitting open so the middle earth can fart and spew some nasty gasses and liquid rocks, that also contribute to global warming. Anyway, the generally universal empathy for children and babies is founded in our programmed response to ensure survival of the human species. The same with all the interest in sex. Mother Nature or God if you prefer, has ensured there will be more than enough embryos made every year to ensure we will be able to make more humans than die that year. This equation gets better and better with every new medical advance we make as well. It is not clear that the "moral" argument, meant to control what people think by weighing down the opposing argument with irrational guilt, has any role here. The United States depends on change to thrive. It is an element of our "culture" if we have such a thing, that an ever increasing rate of change is a greater and greater opportunity for strength over our adversaries. Our economic engine runs entirely on change and our adoption of change as a tool is our greatest advantage over other, more traditionally anchored cultures. The idea that we would turn our back on this potential key to unparalleled change in medical products and industries, and let others lead the world down this path is actually incomprehensible. Especially when I hear guys like you profess your belief in the importance of keeping America whole and strong. Makes no sense to me when the question is taken out of the context of a "moral" argument over embryos, or when one considers the same people think it is fine to send young "adults" to foreign lands to die for inexplicable reasons - whole, formed, reared and trained humans who experience the pain of being torn apart by bullets and IEDs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by QBNCGAR
Regarding the refrigerator comment,..
As noted, it is not clear that Mr. Bush believes much of anything but what is important to keep him and his party in power. Leaving that aside, nearly every technology and every engineering project, civil, mechanical or otherwise, has cost human lives. Should we not have built the Hoover Dam with government funding because a bunch of men died building it? How about the Golden Gate Bridge? Or our cities and railroads and so on? This country is addicted to, and depends on change. Our cultural appreciation and dependence on an ever increasing rate of change is one of the things that makes other cultures afraid of us. But, it is something we cannot, as Americans, continue to own a leadership role in the world without - we have to innovate, create, invent and develop. And stem cell research is vital to maintaining our role as the director of change in the world. Jim

Last edited by JimSmith; 07-20-2006 at 11:47 PM.
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post #50 of 54 (permalink) Old 07-21-2006, 08:07 PM
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I do understand where you are coming from and as you said, I just don't agree with part of it. My thoughts on Stem Cell and Bush's decision are based on a couple of things. First, he made the decision on his morals, not the common good of the people of the country. Science in general, and Stem Cell science in specific has been rather open about the potential for this research and what it means for people with many different diseases.

There seems to be a tacit approval of the research if it is done by Corporate entities instead of the Government which leads me to believe that the moral argument has zero merit at that point.

You state that you don't believe that the Government has any place in medicine. The US government has The National Institute of Health, The National Cancer Institute, The National Heart Institute, the CDC, and so many more. They are on the cutting edge of so much basic science in not only determining what works with what but the very essence of what a specific disease is. It was the CDC and NIH, along with the Pasteur Institute in France that did the basic research to determine HIV and AIDS that insured the national blood supply was safe.

As for Bush's intellect, I am just not convinced. I know Ivy League grads that are as irrational as the day is long. Some are bright in one subject but can't function on other levels. As a senior Systems Analyst [I put the Anal in Analyst] I have dealt with Senior VP level folk at Square D, Groupe Schneider, IBM and Microsoft and a couple of others and have lived with how they work and provide strong decisions. Bush has not shown that type of ability. And at the WH level, people will work with an idiot just to have WH on their resume.

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