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post #61 of 101 (permalink) Old 06-28-2006, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by GermanStar
How absurd and ironic that folks from the 'anti-abortion' movement only apply that commandment to the unborn......
It's certainly true that this faction has basically acted like terrorists in the past. Bombing clinics and killing doctors pretty much negates any chance they had to make a convincing "pro-life" statement.

I suppose since this is in support of your statement, I won't need to provide sources or cite examples...
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post #62 of 101 (permalink) Old 06-28-2006, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by QBNCGAR
This is why I'm not very religious...the same book can be quoted as saying "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth." I have a lot of problems weaving my way through the contradictions and finding the 'path' so to speak.

Anyway, comparing innocent civilians who were killed during wartime by bombs (pregnant or otherwise) and a woman seeking abortion is making a pretty big stretch. They aren't quite in the same league...the only similarity is that lives are lost in the process. I don't think anyone is "pro-killing of innocent people" under any circumstances (please don't take the low road and make claims like "Bush is!" - there's no point in going there).

Moral questions are the hardest we face, especially as a free society. If you can kill a rabbit and save millions of people from some form of horrible death, would you do it? What if you had to kill all of the rabbits? What if you had to kill a child? I'm not professing to have the answers or even to be qualified to weigh in...I just understand that they're pretty complicated subjects, and everyone will have a different opinion based on their own situations & beliefs.
"Thou Shalt Not Kill" is not a conditional statement -- it applies to all who are alive, IOW, all who have actually been born. As to those unborn, that would seem to be a matter of some debate, but I think it's probably safe to say that stone age savages probably did not view the unborn as alive.

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post #63 of 101 (permalink) Old 06-28-2006, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by kerry edwards
I'll venture that what unites evangelicals in the main is a conservative attitude towards social and political authority and all this implies including the traditional power of men over women. This conservative attitude towards social systems does not grow out of evangelical commitment to biblical authority and christian theology but vice versa. The best example I can think of which confirms this view is the issue of abortion. Almost all evangelicals are pro-life yet the Bible does not mention abortion at all. If the movement was truly a movement based in biblical theology, one would expect a wide diversity of opinion on abortion since the Bible takes no position on it. If however, the movement is rooted in a set of conservative social values, one would expect that the movement be pro-life because of the radical social implications for the freedom and power of women if reproduction and sex are separated. The author's argument about the Iraq war is a similar confirmation of what evangelicalism is all about.
There is "a wide diversity of opinion on abortion" among conservatives, but the reason "the Bible takes no position on it" is probably because there was no such thing as abortion 2,000 years ago. The word abortion is not mentioned in our Constitution either, but don't try to tell that to a liberal.

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post #64 of 101 (permalink) Old 06-28-2006, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by mcbear
Last night Texas sent number 13 to the great beyond. The railroad killer had also killed a student here in Lexington, and raped his girlfriend.

There is a web site somewhere that keeps count of the Texas vs Saudi Arabia Death Penalty Competition. Texas is ahead at this time.

So, is it just ok to kill some one if we think they are bad. Everyone wants to kill Saddam. We even put patriotic music to the bombing of Baghdad and play it over and over, never thinking about the 'non combatants' under those fireballs. Maybe even some unborn. But that is OK. Shouldn't "Thou Shalt Not Kill" be a blanket rule?
Absolutely! I think the Texas Railroad Killer and Saddam should come live w/ you!!

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post #65 of 101 (permalink) Old 06-28-2006, 10:31 AM
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Absolutely! I think the Texas Railroad Killer and Saddam should come live w/ you!!
Apparently the Railroad killer WAS within about a half mile of me at one point. And note, I never said I was against the Death Penalty. Just pointing out an irony in the pro-life argument.

I also have strongly suggested that Saddam should go, just not through the invasion of the country.

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post #66 of 101 (permalink) Old 06-28-2006, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by mcbear
Apparently the Railroad killer WAS within about a half mile of me at one point. And note, I never said I was against the Death Penalty. Just pointing out an irony in the pro-life argument.

I also have strongly suggested that Saddam should go, just not through the invasion of the country.
I do not see the "irony" in that, but have you seen Bert lately? Now there is irony!
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post #67 of 101 (permalink) Old 06-28-2006, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by QBNCGAR
This is why I'm not very religious...the same book can be quoted as saying "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth." I have a lot of problems weaving my way through the contradictions and finding the 'path' so to speak.

Anyway, comparing innocent civilians who were killed during wartime by bombs (pregnant or otherwise) and a woman seeking abortion is making a pretty big stretch. They aren't quite in the same league...the only similarity is that lives are lost in the process. I don't think anyone is "pro-killing of innocent people" under any circumstances (please don't take the low road and make claims like "Bush is!" - there's no point in going there).

Moral questions are the hardest we face, especially as a free society. If you can kill a rabbit and save millions of people from some form of horrible death, would you do it? What if you had to kill all of the rabbits? What if you had to kill a child? I'm not professing to have the answers or even to be qualified to weigh in...I just understand that they're pretty complicated subjects, and everyone will have a different opinion based on their own situations & beliefs.
I do understand where you are coming from. I have explained myself as a recovering Baptist to many many people. I don't however think it is a stretch to look at the opposition of a) someone going in for an abortion and considering it morally wrong with b) thinking it is morally ok for civilians to die in an invasion.

When I was in OTC, part of that training included a tremendous amount in the philosophies and psychologies of understanding that if I had to either fly a target or launch, many innocents would die. Unlike Army or Marines, if we launched [in the 70's] it meant millions dead. When we flew missions [I ended up not flying] thousands could die on one mission. I understand that responsibility and as an extractor, I had to make that decision. It is no different than the moral decision a woman goes through when she makes a choice that she has to make.

My point is Kill is Kill. Period. If you believe that the Bible suports Right to Life through "Thou Shall Not Kill". I can respect that. But Kill has to be blanket, not selective. Anyone can pick the easy targets. Right now, about half the country supports Right to Life so that is pretty easy to support. So is Pro Choice. It will be a never ending argument. Until I get a uterus, I really have no dog in the fight.

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post #68 of 101 (permalink) Old 06-28-2006, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Jayhawk
I do not see the "irony" in that, but have you seen Bert lately? Now there is irony!
You don't see the irony in being Pro Life and Pro Death Penalty?

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post #69 of 101 (permalink) Old 06-28-2006, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by mcbear
You don't see the irony in being Pro Life and Pro Death Penalty?
As w/ most things, you right-wing wackos fail to see beyond the end of your nose: Killing a defenseless, unborn child is bad! Killing a murderous, perverted scumbag is good! Daaahhhh! At least Bert knew the difference between good and bad...

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post #70 of 101 (permalink) Old 06-28-2006, 04:10 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by GermanStar
How absurd and ironic that folks from the 'anti-abortion' movement only apply that commandment to the unborn......
Some do, most don't.

The Roman Catholics are the largest single Christian denomination and they oppose both the death penalty and abortion and for exactly the reason you indicate.

Others, like the Episcopal Church USA, oppose the death penalty and are all muddled over whether they think a fetus is a person or an inconvenience for the incubator. So typically, they agree with both sides.

Many pro-lifers argue that a baby is innocent and therefore killing an innocent baby is far worse than executing the guilty.

I don't know where either Islamic or Judaic religious opinions are.

Etc.
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