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post #101 of 118 (permalink) Old 06-27-2006, 04:30 PM
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Look, I don't agree with the guy but I the ad hominem argument I find unproductive.

The point I thought was to be made by posting his argument is this: He is a bright guy and puts together a cogent dissenting view. If the climate change people wish to prevail sooner rather than later they better be able to address the arguments of folks like this.

Name-calling ain't gonna cut it. It doesn't convince the people who need convincing it just pisses them off. Unpersuasive trivialization of an extremely important topic.

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post #102 of 118 (permalink) Old 06-27-2006, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Jayhawk
And you are the "Unpaid Debunker"? Or smear campaign director??
Don't shoot the messenger, I am just pointing out the guy's credentials. It would be if an Al Franken type was writing an op-ed piece on a Bush State of the Union.

Debunking and smearing suggests either not using facts or twisting and turning them so neither of those could be me. I was a Baptist Childrens Choir Director once though. And I have directed traffic [problem during boot camp].

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post #103 of 118 (permalink) Old 06-27-2006, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by mcbear
Don't shoot the messenger, I am just pointing out the guy's credentials. It would be if an Al Franken type was writing an op-ed piece on a Bush State of the Union.

Debunking and smearing suggests either not using facts or twisting and turning them so neither of those could be me. I was a Baptist Childrens Choir Director once though. And I have directed traffic [problem during boot camp].
Of that I have no doubt...

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post #104 of 118 (permalink) Old 06-27-2006, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by mcbear
You might want to google Dr. Lindzen. Other than his sponsorship by Sun Myung Moon and Oil and Coal companies, he has a rather poor reputation among the scientific community at large over a very long period of time.
Can this statement be substantiated? Even so, what does it have to do with the points he brought forth in his dissertation? If those points are not valid, or if he's misquoted people, certainly this would come to light without too much effort...otherwise, his points are valid - they need to be addressed by the "global warming" crowd if their position and suggestions are to remain plausible.

I'd also argue that the contradictory statements he cites by those in the alarmist limelight do nothing to help the cause...in the absence of a case that holds more water than it does currently, they could use better spokespeople.
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post #105 of 118 (permalink) Old 06-27-2006, 08:56 PM
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Can this statement be substantiated? Even so, what does it have to do with the points he brought forth in his dissertation? If those points are not valid, or if he's misquoted people, certainly this would come to light without too much effort...otherwise, his points are valid - they need to be addressed by the "global warming" crowd if their position and suggestions are to remain plausible.

I'd also argue that the contradictory statements he cites by those in the alarmist limelight do nothing to help the cause...in the absence of a case that holds more water than it does currently, they could use better spokespeople.
Don't try to be logical w/ these liberals. They just want to argue, not be logical.
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post #106 of 118 (permalink) Old 06-28-2006, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Botnst
Look, I don't agree with the guy but I the ad hominem argument I find unproductive.

The point I thought was to be made by posting his argument is this: He is a bright guy and puts together a cogent dissenting view. If the climate change people wish to prevail sooner rather than later they better be able to address the arguments of folks like this.

Name-calling ain't gonna cut it. It doesn't convince the people who need convincing it just pisses them off. Unpersuasive trivialization of an extremely important topic.B
In the case of a paid debunker, the ad hominem argument is part of the discussion. He has a history of twisting facts in his articles, sliding dates [intertwining 50 year old data with current information in a paragraph making it all look current].

I agree that name calling or trivialization of an author is not the A Route BUT, unless people understand where the author is coming from, they don't know how to interpret the data. Just reading the Sloan Scholar at MIT at the bottom of the article gives one impression of Dr. Lindzen. That is not, however his whole story on the subject.

When Lindzen worked in Lexington on his Acid Rain project, he was paid big bucks [$100,000 grant for 3 months] to write a paper that 'reviewed' papers by researchers that stated that acid rain was caused by high sulfur, bituminous coal... His paper, shockingly opposed that view. It was later debunked, the paying organization was charged with fraud and the University had a shakeup in that department. Lindzen kept his money.

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post #107 of 118 (permalink) Old 06-28-2006, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by mcbear
When Lindzen worked in Lexington on his Acid Rain project, he was paid big bucks [$100,000 grant for 3 months] to write a paper that 'reviewed' papers by researchers that stated that acid rain was caused by high sulfur, bituminous coal... His paper, shockingly opposed that view. It was later debunked, the paying organization was charged with fraud and the University had a shakeup in that department. Lindzen kept his money.
Understood. I guess I'm more interested in the content than the author - again, if the points he raises are indeed falsehoods, it won't stand scrutiny. That document echoes much of the things I've heard that cause me to have the doubts I have - if they can be convincingly 'debunked', those opposing things like the Kyoto Protocol will have far less ground on which to stand.
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post #108 of 118 (permalink) Old 06-28-2006, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by QBNCGAR
Can this statement be substantiated? Even so, what does it have to do with the points he brought forth in his dissertation? If those points are not valid, or if he's misquoted people, certainly this would come to light without too much effort...otherwise, his points are valid - they need to be addressed by the "global warming" crowd if their position and suggestions are to remain plausible.

I'd also argue that the contradictory statements he cites by those in the alarmist limelight do nothing to help the cause...in the absence of a case that holds more water than it does currently, they could use better spokespeople.
If I posted it, it can be substantiated. Just google the man's name, get a hot tea, some cookies and set back for an hour or so and read. What it has to do with this dissertation is his reputation of twisting facts, merging current data with decades old data to make it all look current and his contracts with companies that pay him to 'research'. Normally his clients are big oil or coal.

The 'global warming' crowd has addressed Dr Linzden on many occasions and I would bet will continue to do so. I am sure he has a very good background in science which makes we wonder how he can draw such different conclusions than most of the scientists from around the world. [and it really is MOST]

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post #109 of 118 (permalink) Old 06-28-2006, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Jayhawk
Don't try to be logical w/ these liberals. They just want to argue, not be logical.
I keep telling you that this Southern Baptist, Eagle Scout, retired Major, pro-gun, fiscal conservative, anti illegal immigration, strong against crime guy is not a liberal.

Now I do believe that we need to do everything we can to help the poor among us, stop sending our jobs offshore, bring back the American Middle Class, protect and reclaim the Environment, protect all Civil Rights, equality for everyone [and everyone includes gays], and a woman’s right to chose. I would also like to see something done about the ratio of CEO salary to worker go down from 268:1 So I am not a conservative either.

That puts me right where I like to be. I never did like the concept of explaining how a person could be pro-life and pro death penalty.

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post #110 of 118 (permalink) Old 06-28-2006, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by QBNCGAR
Understood. I guess I'm more interested in the content than the author - again, if the points he raises are indeed falsehoods, it won't stand scrutiny. That document echoes much of the things I've heard that cause me to have the doubts I have - if they can be convincingly 'debunked', those opposing things like the Kyoto Protocol will have far less ground on which to stand.
I understand. There is a lot of science flying around out there. I have been following much of the debate since my time at the Academy in the mid 70's when we discussed whether jet fuel at high/very high altitudes harmed the environment as was being claimed by early environmentalists [yes was the answer]. Nothing was done about it, however.

I would recommend trying to find research by a group like Woods Hole or another group that has non-government, neutral grant support and look at their research. You could also get the latest report that Congress funded [it was a Majority based request but bipartisan supported report] from the Government Printing Office. Maybe find some studies that are not in the US so there is no perception that they are polluted by US politics and read their research. See what you find. That is the only way that I do it. I read a good report from U. Edinborough earlier this week.

My problem is I read about 30 hours a week of politics, economics and environment while working on database stuff [I am suppose to be retired] so I get a good wide view of articles.

McBear,
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