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post #21 of 40 (permalink) Old 06-20-2006, 03:44 PM
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The War in Iraq had nothing to do with the "War on Terrorism" until the GOP invaded it.
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post #22 of 40 (permalink) Old 06-20-2006, 03:48 PM
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Touchy touchy. Sounds like we all forgot our medication today.

You've never been to the middle east, have you? Perhaps you are unfamiliar with, or worse, ignorant of despotism. You allude to behaviors of the American body politic, but you somehow have blinders with regard to the rest of the world.

Warfare is an ugly thing. It has as a natural consequence death, and sadly the death of innocents. There cannot be a perfect war, except the one that will (hopefully) never occur. When a nation-state choses to depart from accepted behaviors, its fellows wage war against it. Total war means that the nation-states involve their peoples and all their efforts in prosecuting war. Saddam Hussein as leader of a nation-state presecuted war against his neighbors and his own country's citizens. He did so w/ abandon. Unbridled, he would have finished his WMD programs (the UN is incapable of controlling anything), and continued his merry chase for regional domination or hegemony.

The consequence cannot be that we ignore him, as the world had since he fought for and seized power in the 1980s. I am too little the philosopher, but I have lived in the region. I HAVE fought the acts of despots. No matter what their name or ideology, I find that some people need killing. Death is a natural outcome, even when it is a chosen outcome, instead of 'natural'.

To ignore the efforts of a nation to dominate and disrupt an entire region is insanity. To allow a nation-state to aid and abet the efforts of those who would kill America (and Americans, and YOUR right to kvetch about your exalted condition) is the worst form of sophistry. I would not and could not stand by while OBL, Saddam Hussein, al Zawahiri and al Zarqawi wage war. IF America weren't present, they'd wage war against others in the name of Isalm.

I have seen the random effects of violence and war. I have been responsible for it. It is ugly. But chosing to ignore the need for intervention is the worst form of cowardice. Here is my favorite misquote about war-



Make a few substitutions, and you get my point. Yes, I am a supporter of the WOT. It began LONG before this adminsitration came to power. Yes, American policies have not always been correct, much less perfect. American servicemen and women are humans, and sometimes make terrible mistakes. Some even commit horrible crimes, for which they should be prosecuted. But the alternative to fighting the WOT is to surrender to the vast night-time of feudalism, and despotism, and to surrender humanity to the desires of a few.

If you feel disenfranchised by the WOT and the administration, OK. You can try and change it. Engage in the war of ideas, instead of the war of name-calling. But if you persist in calling someone a disgusting name, your children (and the world by extension) will learn that their are no limits on human behavior. That is anarchy.

Some may desire 'anarchy'. You have no idea of the implications.

For now- "Make them fear me more than they hate me" is not the answer. But maybe "I am coming" is good enough. Certain retribution is the only deterrent, whether to criminal behavioor, or to insane behavior.
WTS speech is very familiar to me. In it, he explains why war should not be entered into lightly, like in making up stories about WMDs, or repeating "911" and "Saddam Hussein" ad infinitum, while admitting there is no known connection between the two. The War in Iraq was a pre-emptive, Hitler style invasion, not some morally commendable crusade to end slavery. Oh, and you want a good quote from Sherman? "Those who pour the cup of war are destined to drink its deepest dregs." We ought to remember that one, as we choke on the blood of thousands of innocent people bombed in their beds by a foreigner invader. You, my friend, are still living the "we will be welcomed as liberators" fantasy. We weren't. That's what happens when you kill people's kids for nothing they did. Welcome to NamRaq. Oh, and if the war is all about saving Iraq from Saddam et al, why don't you send your fucking kids to fight it and leave mine the hell alone?

Last edited by FeelTheLove; 06-20-2006 at 03:51 PM.
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post #23 of 40 (permalink) Old 06-20-2006, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by FeelTheLove
WTS speech is very familiar to me. In it, he explains why war should not be entered into lightly, like in making up stories about WMDs, or repeating "911" and "Saddam Hussein" ad infinitum, while admitting there is no known connection between the two. The War in Iraq was a pre-emptive, Hitler style invasion, not some morally commendable crusade to end slavery. Oh, and you want a good quote from Sherman? "Those who pour the cup of war are destined to drink its deepest dregs." We ought to remember that one, as we choke on the blood of thousands of innocent people bombed in their beds by a foreigner invader. You, my friend, are still living the "we will be welcomed as liberators" fantasy. We weren't. That's what happens when you kill people's kids for nothing they did. Welcome to NamRaq. Oh, and if the war is all about saving Iraq from Saddam et al, why don't you send your fucking kids to fight it and leave mine the hell alone?
I opine you misinerpret WTS. As do most. Sherman was of course (in his dregs commentary) noting that the South (read 'the Isalmists' for my perspective) "Poured the cup of war". We are merely cleaining it up.

I am not your friend, nor your enemy, so don't patronize me or anyone else. I am not living the 'liberator fantasy', but I have seen the positive effects America is having in Iraq. You may choose to ignore them, while I will not ignore the errors made. So be it. We all have our delusions.

"Your kids" aren't going I imagine. They won't volunteer. That's OK, this is America. Even were a draft necessary, I doubt 'they' would go. And the 'Hitler-sytle' mantra is loosing its chic. America has not persectued the Arab, nor penned them into ghettos, nor murdered them as an act of policy in the millions. We didn't play nice w/ Saddam until 30 September, then invade. We made it very clear 'we are coming'. You invested in the politics of avoidance (and misinterpret WTS to boot), and so you feel horrified that innocents die. Guess what: so do I.

WMD- would you allow your neighbor to knowingly pursue assembly and operation of a meth lab? Even for 'personal use'? Ad infinitum?
ROTFLMDAO- take your blinders off!

Stick a fork in me, I'm done for today.

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Last edited by InTTruder; 06-20-2006 at 04:02 PM.
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post #24 of 40 (permalink) Old 06-20-2006, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by FeelTheLove
The War in Iraq had nothing to do with the "War on Terrorism" until the GOP invaded it.

Natural Selection at work-

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post #25 of 40 (permalink) Old 06-20-2006, 11:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InTTruder
I opine you misinerpret WTS. As do most. Sherman was of course (in his dregs commentary) noting that the South (read 'the Isalmists' for my perspective) "Poured the cup of war". We are merely cleaining it up.

I am not your friend, nor your enemy, so don't patronize me or anyone else. I am not living the 'liberator fantasy', but I have seen the positive effects America is having in Iraq. You may choose to ignore them, while I will not ignore the errors made. So be it. We all have our delusions.

"Your kids" aren't going I imagine. They won't volunteer. That's OK, this is America. Even were a draft necessary, I doubt 'they' would go. And the 'Hitler-sytle' mantra is loosing its chic. America has not persectued the Arab, nor penned them into ghettos, nor murdered them as an act of policy in the millions. We didn't play nice w/ Saddam until 30 September, then invade. We made it very clear 'we are coming'. You invested in the politics of avoidance (and misinterpret WTS to boot), and so you feel horrified that innocents die. Guess what: so do I.

WMD- would you allow your neighbor to knowingly pursue assembly and operation of a meth lab? Even for 'personal use'? Ad infinitum?
ROTFLMDAO- take your blinders off!

Stick a fork in me, I'm done for today.
Well, at least you express your opinions clearly. The problem is, when are so clearly capable of expressing your opinion and stop short of offering more than that superior attitude about "you don't understand this ... or that" about WMD or the war on terror, your opinions sound empty and based on a whole hearted belief in the Republican Party propaganda.

The UN was controlling Saddam. The only WMD in Iraq at the time we invaded, or the few years immediately preceding our invasion on false pretenses it turned out, were the ones under guard since the previous Iraq war that had been gathered and stored under UN supervision until we forced those inspectors and guards out with our Shock and Awe campaign. We were so unprepared for the consequences of our blundering invasion, we did not even know to set up watch over those items until months later.

We have the technology to have observed Saddam's initiatives and traced every move of the WMDs our lying President, lying Vice President and lying then National Security Advisor so feverishly and repeatedly told us and the world were in Iraq without any question. Kennedy used the best technology he had available to make his case in the UN for the Cuban Missile Crisis embargo. George did nothing of the kind to present a case with real evidence to the UN or the American people. In fact, he did nothing to validate his case. And that has turned out to cost us dearly.

The war on terror never had anything to do with Iraq until cowboy George told the world of Islam to "bring it on" and then invited them to kill Americans one, two or three at a time as bait in Iraq. American soldiers are always to be honored for their service to our country. Part of that tradition should be to have a President who is at least willing to exercise available intellectual and technical resources to be right before he sends them into harm's way. How you interpret the careless expenditure of our volunteer armed forces as being somehow loyal support of them is beyond me.

I was convinced Bush did all that before he invaded. The time that has passed has only made it clear he did not. It is possible he did not because he did not know how. The only other feasible explanation is he is just a plain liar with an agenda that is too distasteful for the American public to know about. In either case he is criminally liable (just like you would be if you portrayed yourself as a qualified bridge engineer, built some defective bridges, killed a few dozen people and then were found out) and unsuitable for the position of President of the United States. The standard is not based on the cliche' that "anyone in America can be President" being interpreted as the standard for being President is to be the lowest common denominator of the American population.

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post #26 of 40 (permalink) Old 06-21-2006, 12:38 AM
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Methinks you will presume them innocent even after they are found guilty.

On the other score, with no WMds, no Al Queda connection, "Shock and Awe" was simple cold-blooded murder by a snot-nosed little prick.

The whole world has defined this war as illegal, with the exception of the wacko-right wankers in the US. The US signed the UN Charter, a legal treaty, where it agreed not to wage war pre-emptively.. instead, Butcher Bush attacked Iraq like Hitler attacked Poland. Bush should be thrown in a cell with Serbian butchers and African child killers.

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post #27 of 40 (permalink) Old 06-21-2006, 06:39 AM
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Illegal...really? Under WHAT law? Ever hear of a thing called cease fire violations and what happens when you do that. International Rules of war Permit our invasion but then why let the facts get in the way of things.

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post #28 of 40 (permalink) Old 06-21-2006, 10:49 AM
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Illegal...really? Under WHAT law? Ever hear of a thing called cease fire violations and what happens when you do that. International Rules of war Permit our invasion but then why let the facts get in the way of things.
Your selective view of the "facts" betrays your cheerleading role.

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post #29 of 40 (permalink) Old 06-21-2006, 10:55 AM
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I dated the "HEAD" cheerleader in high school.
Mmmmm, that was good.

Can we take a poll on cheer-leading. Is it good for America?
post #30 of 40 (permalink) Old 06-21-2006, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by InTTruder
Natural Selection at work-
Brainwashing at work. The only one who believes it is the 30% left who still support Bush. Everyone else has figured it out for what it was - a trumped up con game. perhaps you can illucidate for the other 70% of us what those connections to terrorism were?
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