Is Carters legacy the rise of fundamentalist Islam? - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #1 of 11 (permalink) Old 06-09-2006, 04:47 AM Thread Starter
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Is Carters legacy the rise of fundamentalist Islam?

Not long after Jimmy Carter was elected in 1977, he reportedly voiced his dislike of the Shah's regime with: "That man has got to go". The Shah tried to mend bridges and visited the U.S. in 78 to meet with Carter at the White House. President Carter had made it very clear that the Shah's regime was now without U.S. support, even when he spent New Year 78 with the Shah in Tehran. Demonstrations against the Shah were initially non Islamic and started in the Universities with students. The Mosques later provided the only available network to coordinate protests and provide logistics. At first, the Iranian revolution was more a case of the leaders following the revolution than vice versa. The Shah's military commanders wanted to deal with those demonstrations much like they had in Jaleh square (massacre). Alexander Haig's second in command at Nato and another U.S. emissary secretly flew into Tehran and met with those officers without meeting the Shah. As a result the Shah's top hardline generals left the Country two days later. The Shah left not long afterwards. Later, one of the first acts of the Mullahs was to execute the ex Shah's top 150 military commanders. To keep support of the students and other anti Shah organizations during the revolution, the Mullahs had promised free political parties with free elections and a free press. The second act was to imprison or make disappear all the non Islamic leaders that had helped them to gain power. Ex President Bani Sadr fled into exile in France. The third act was to again renege on all the promises for free political parties, free elections etc.. With re establishing strict censorship, the closing of several newspapers, and the occupation by revolutionary guards of the TV and radio stations, the Mullahs took control of the media. The fourth act was the convenient explosion of a building that killed over eighty more liberal Clerics. They were led by Ayatollah Beheshti and their mistake was to have been in favour of a secular goverment for Iran. Into this vacuum stepped Saddam Hussein. Ayatollah Khomeini had been exiled from Iran and lived in the Shia holy city of Najaf in Iraq since 65. Here it gets a bit murky, some say the Shah asked Irag to expell Khomeini, others (myself included) believe he was asked to leave by Saddam. While attempting to enter their Country, the Kuwaiti's consulted the Shahs people, who unwisely suggested to refuse entry. This made Komeini's move to Paris possible and provided a public platform with the BBC shortwave service broadcasting his speeches in Farsi. Iran and Iraq had negotiated the long disputed border in the Shatt el Arab delta/river to be the center of the river. Saddam declared the river bank on the Iranian side to be the border and initiated the war with Iran, believing to achieve an easy victory. U.S. President Jimmy Carter's policies and their results have to be the greatest foreign policy disaster of the last fifty or more years. Advocates of the domino theory may argue that without the fall of Iran (for the West), perhaps the Russian invasion of Afghanistan might not have happened the way it did, Iraq would have been unlikely to risk an armed confrontation with Iran and would not have dared to invade Kuwait either. It is doubtful there would have been an Islamic Republic of Iran, with the intent to spread the Mullahs vision of Islam to other Countries, much like tentacles holding guns and oil dollars. The situation we are in feels to much like funding the instrument of our own possible demise. Teutone
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post #2 of 11 (permalink) Old 06-09-2006, 06:12 AM
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The "Shah" (aka typical fascist dictator) gained power through a CIA coup. Perhaps one should look there for the rise of fundamentalist Islam. Populations support who ever can deliver them from their oppressors. Whether we like it or not, that turned out to be Khomeni. In Nicaragua, it turned out to be Daniel Ortega. In China, it was Mao Tse Tung. In Vietnam, Ho Che Minh. Figured the common denominator yet?
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post #3 of 11 (permalink) Old 06-09-2006, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Teutone
Not long after Jimmy Carter was elected in 1977, he reportedly voiced his dislike of the Shah's regime with: "That man has got to go". The Shah tried to mend bridges and visited the U.S. in 78 to meet with Carter at the White House. President Carter had made it very clear that the Shah's regime was now without U.S. support, even when he spent New Year 78 with the Shah in Tehran. Demonstrations against the Shah were initially non Islamic and started in the Universities with students. The Mosques later provided the only available network to coordinate protests and provide logistics. At first, the Iranian revolution was more a case of the leaders following the revolution than vice versa. The Shah's military commanders wanted to deal with those demonstrations much like they had in Jaleh square (massacre). Alexander Haig's second in command at Nato and another U.S. emissary secretly flew into Tehran and met with those officers without meeting the Shah. As a result the Shah's top hardline generals left the Country two days later. The Shah left not long afterwards. Later, one of the first acts of the Mullahs was to execute the ex Shah's top 150 military commanders. To keep support of the students and other anti Shah organizations during the revolution, the Mullahs had promised free political parties with free elections and a free press. The second act was to imprison or make disappear all the non Islamic leaders that had helped them to gain power. Ex President Bani Sadr fled into exile in France. The third act was to again renege on all the promises for free political parties, free elections etc.. With re establishing strict censorship, the closing of several newspapers, and the occupation by revolutionary guards of the TV and radio stations, the Mullahs took control of the media. The fourth act was the convenient explosion of a building that killed over eighty more liberal Clerics. They were led by Ayatollah Beheshti and their mistake was to have been in favour of a secular goverment for Iran. Into this vacuum stepped Saddam Hussein. Ayatollah Khomeini had been exiled from Iran and lived in the Shia holy city of Najaf in Iraq since 65. Here it gets a bit murky, some say the Shah asked Irag to expell Khomeini, others (myself included) believe he was asked to leave by Saddam. While attempting to enter their Country, the Kuwaiti's consulted the Shahs people, who unwisely suggested to refuse entry. This made Komeini's move to Paris possible and provided a public platform with the BBC shortwave service broadcasting his speeches in Farsi. Iran and Iraq had negotiated the long disputed border in the Shatt el Arab delta/river to be the center of the river. Saddam declared the river bank on the Iranian side to be the border and initiated the war with Iran, believing to achieve an easy victory. U.S. President Jimmy Carter's policies and their results have to be the greatest foreign policy disaster of the last fifty or more years. Advocates of the domino theory may argue that without the fall of Iran (for the West), perhaps the Russian invasion of Afghanistan might not have happened the way it did, Iraq would have been unlikely to risk an armed confrontation with Iran and would not have dared to invade Kuwait either. It is doubtful there would have been an Islamic Republic of Iran, with the intent to spread the Mullahs vision of Islam to other Countries, much like tentacles holding guns and oil dollars. The situation we are in feels to much like funding the instrument of our own possible demise. Teutone
That is a well-written, and well-reasoned, examination of Jimmy Carter's failures in the arena of foreign policy. Carter surrounded himself with advisors who were ill-equipped to deal with world realities as they existed at the time but who shared his world-view. We paid the price and, in fact, are still paying the price.

I think that Carter is basically a well-meaning and fairly intelligent man who was not qualified to be President of the US. He would have never been elected if Ford not pardoned Nixon.

Oh well, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions....
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post #4 of 11 (permalink) Old 06-09-2006, 08:44 AM
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That is a well-written, and well-reasoned, examination of Jimmy Carter's failures in the arena of foreign policy. Carter surrounded himself with advisors who were ill-equipped to deal with world realities as they existed at the time but who shared his world-view. We paid the price and, in fact, are still paying the price.

I think that Carter is basically a well-meaning and fairly intelligent man who was not qualified to be President of the US. He would have never been elected if Ford not pardoned Nixon.

Oh well, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions....
Both a well written summary of the region in the 70's and summary of Carter's foreign policy.

The Domino Effect of politics is every bit as interesting as that in the Middle East. Nixon had Watergate, Ford pardoned Nixon, Carter failed in foreign policy, Reagan won from Carter.

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post #5 of 11 (permalink) Old 06-09-2006, 10:51 AM
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Does this mean Carter started Habitat for Hamas?

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post #6 of 11 (permalink) Old 06-09-2006, 11:14 AM
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Carter failed in foreign policy.....
...and domestic policy. Nice man, good heart, lousy president...

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post #7 of 11 (permalink) Old 06-09-2006, 02:20 PM
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Does this mean Carter started Habitat for Hamas?
That's Habitat for Hummus a little Jewish restaurant on the upper West Side. They make a great chick pea dish. Try it with the Kabobs.

They get confused all the time.

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post #8 of 11 (permalink) Old 06-09-2006, 02:48 PM Thread Starter
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I lived there between 73 and 83 and this was a very condensed and simplified account. Another hypothetical outcome would have been when 1n 1951 the nationalist Mossadegh was elected only to be removed from power by the CIA. The young Shah had already been in exile in Italy. Mohammad Mossadegh was a proponent of Democracy and held under house arrest near Esfahan until his natural death. Teutone

Last edited by Teutone; 06-09-2006 at 02:53 PM.
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post #9 of 11 (permalink) Old 06-09-2006, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Teutone
I lived there between 73 and 83 and this was a very condensed and simplified account. Another hypothetical outcome would have been when 1n 1951 the nationalist Mossadegh was elected only to be removed from power by the CIA. The young Shah had already been in exile in Italy. Mohammad Mossadegh was a proponent of Democracy and held under house arrest near Esfahan until his natural death. Teutone
Dominos go both ways. In the 50's what was the flavor of democracy in Iran? Did it lean toward a socialist/communist direction or one with a more religious, nationalist flavor? Or another direction altogether?

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post #10 of 11 (permalink) Old 06-09-2006, 07:11 PM
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Talking Interesting Essay!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teutone
Not long after Jimmy Carter was elected in 1977, he reportedly voiced his dislike of the Shah's regime with: "That man has got to go"...It is doubtful there would have been an Islamic Republic of Iran, with the intent to spread the Mullahs vision of Islam to other Countries, much like tentacles holding guns and oil dollars. The situation we are in feels to much like funding the instrument of our own possible demise. Teutone
You've removed the froth of regional bias and revealed the essence of the contemporary socio-politcal world we've inherited.
Now, can you opine with the same acuity on the great sex I am about to have?

Mi$ter Right.
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