Can the war in Iraq still be won? - Page 6 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #51 of 60 (permalink) Old 06-08-2006, 09:11 PM
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saddam is a sunni and a baathist. sunnis have/had no oil.. northern oil fields are really in kurdish areas and the southern in shiia.

baath and al qaida ideologies do not coencide at all. sunnis are tribal which is blood and politics, both.. (one could call it "the mob") baath is a socialistic pan arab movement (strongly non religious) and al qaida is a religious one that is all about jihad and conversion and a theocracy.

the iraq/iran war was not about religion. it was about some land and mainly for history. it was somewhat of an arab/persian war. at least the reasons for it anyway.
Ok, point taken but that history is about religion. The land fight is deeply rooted in history and religion. What do you think Israel and Paelstine is all about? Oil? No - it's a religious war based on the premise that one is the rightful owner of the other. The underlying basis of Iran/Iraq. The distinction here is that now the regime fundamentalists who could care less about the land are waging war on western society on the basis of belief and lifestyle. How are you going to win that war? Generations have been raised under this outcry to western civiization. It's suddenly not as simple as relinquishing a chunk of earth, it's about downright views, beliefs, and mode of living.

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post #52 of 60 (permalink) Old 06-08-2006, 09:38 PM
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Ok, point taken but that history is about religion. The land fight is deeply rooted in history and religion. What do you think Israel and Paelstine is all about? Oil? No - it's a religious war based on the premise that one is the rightful owner of the other. The underlying basis of Iran/Iraq. The distinction here is that now the regime fundamentalists who could care less about the land are waging war on western society on the basis of belief and lifestyle. How are you going to win that war? Generations have been raised under this outcry to western civiization. It's suddenly not as simple as relinquishing a chunk of earth, it's about downright views, beliefs, and mode of living.

in the last part you definitely describe al qaida and what's going on.. it's a religious movement.. the other may seem as religious conflicts but they really arent. israel/palestine is pretty much purely about land.. iran/iraq conflict even though some lands switched hands a few times had more to do with the whole arab/persian thing.. i can't recall the names right now but has to do with Al-Qadisiyya and went on in mid 600s.



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post #53 of 60 (permalink) Old 06-08-2006, 09:42 PM
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in the last part you definitely describe al qaida and what's going on.. it's a religious movement.. the other may seem as religious conflicts but they really arent. israel/palestine is pretty much purely about land.. iran/iraq conflict even though some lands switched hands a few times had more to do with the whole arab/persian thing.. i can't recall the names right now but has to do with Al-Qadisiyya and went on in mid 600s.
The land argument is based on religious point and right to exist. The holy war of all holy wars.

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post #54 of 60 (permalink) Old 06-08-2006, 09:59 PM
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nobody is trying to convert anybody in that war.. it's 'we were here first.. the religions happen to be different and one side says it's theirs because of some papers in a cave but i still don't' really see it as religious.. sure some of the arab fanatics use religion but that still doesn't make it a religious conflict.. further israel doesn't really see it as a religious war either..



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post #55 of 60 (permalink) Old 06-09-2006, 04:59 AM Thread Starter
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Apart from suice bombings, to me the Islamic fundamentalist bomber or an Christian fundamentalist who bombs abortion clinics are equally insane zealots. Teutone
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post #56 of 60 (permalink) Old 06-09-2006, 06:17 AM
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You bet. Before we had Zaqueery and Osama, we had Timothy McVeigh. I bet most of the "conservative" wackos on this board were Waco conspiracy nuts, just like he was. The two terrorist groups we have to deal with in this country are Islamic crazies and right wing fuckheads, both of which have a lot in common.
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post #57 of 60 (permalink) Old 06-09-2006, 08:08 AM
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Saddam was attached to Sunna theology only insofar as his tribal ties complimented his personal ambition. What I mean by that is he came to power as a Baathist. This is a socialist movement originated by a Maronite Christian to transcend tribe and religion. It was a pan-arab political movement that resulted in the UAR, a dream of pan-arabists that died stillborn.

Saddam used the political unity of Baathism to undermine his predecessor and then murdered his fellow Baathists who were ideologues, sparing those who shifted alligence to Saddam. Saddam adopted a religious posture only during his disastrous war against Iran, in order to gain financial support from Kuwait and KSA. KSA gave money, Kuwait did not and then Saddam invaded Kuwait.

Saddam was NEVER an ardent religionist. He used religion as a tool to solidify his tribal support and oppress the Shia. The Kurds, also a Sunni people, were oppressed by Saddam, too. Wrong tribe. Sorry.

There was no oil in the original domains of the Sunni minority during the past couple of centuries. Saddam forcibly colonized Shia, Kurd, and Turkoman dominated tribal areas with his Tikriti tribal members who happened to be Sunni.

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OK, I had the politics rights but the oil in the wrong place [ Like W I would have failed in the oil biz also if left on my own]. I knew he was not strong with his religion but had not remembered all of the details when I typed. Thanks to MZSMBS PENTAGON and BOTS for that very good refresher. This is why I like this forum.

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post #58 of 60 (permalink) Old 06-09-2006, 08:26 AM
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Apart from suice bombings, to me the Islamic fundamentalist bomber or an Christian fundamentalist who bombs abortion clinics are equally insane zealots. Teutone
Eric Rudolph in Atlanta and McVeigh in OK City and Flip Benham all have either Bombed or instigated bombings in the name of some fundamental [fun for mental] group. The list goes on and extreme Christian Fundamentalists don't seem to realize that their sermons of intolorance and hate are not only anti Christian but cause violence and murder, just like the Islamic Fundamentalists that they hate so much.

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post #59 of 60 (permalink) Old 06-09-2006, 02:35 PM Thread Starter
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It is interesting to note that the polarization of the Christian right and fundamentalist Islam fall in a similar time frame. Without trying to excuse any of the actions perpetrated by people with an perverted view of Islam, we are sometimes a bit hasty to point the finger halfway around the World. No one is lily white here and a little introspection cant't hurt. BTW I find it ironic that many pro lifers are pro death penalty. Teutone
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post #60 of 60 (permalink) Old 06-09-2006, 02:47 PM
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It is interesting to note that the polarization of the Christian right and fundamentalist Islam fall in a similar time frame. Without trying to excuse any of the actions perpetrated by people with an perverted view of Islam, we are sometimes a bit hasty to point the finger halfway around the World. No one is lily white here and a little introspection cant't hurt. BTW I find it ironic that many pro lifers are pro death penalty. Teutone
ProLife and Pro Capital Punishment has always been my favorite. The right will say that the left is the opposite but Choice is choice. As an Independent, I am Pro Choice AND for Capital Punishment, though less and less for CP every day as I see DNA problems showing up and some states not willing to take time to look at that because it is not convenient.

Now this thread REALLY does not need to go this direction, it was a quick tangent.

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