Gas prices outside the U.S. ? - Page 8 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #71 of 96 (permalink) Old 06-04-2006, 04:30 AM
CH4S Artist
 
Teutone's Avatar
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: 1985 500SEC, 1991 190E 2.6.
Location: Los Angeles / Hannover Germany
Posts: 33,584
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Quoted: 959 Post(s)
Lifetime Premium Member
Every Country has people unable to fend for themselves. There are big differences of being poor. Someone poor is far better off in say Iran than Anatolia. In India you have Goverment trucks whose only business is to pick up bodies off the streets. These corpses have begging bowls placed next them and are only picked up and thrown onto the back if there is money in the bowl. Corpses being forced to beg for disposal after death must be the ultimate symbol of a cruel society. In some cities there, fourty percent of the population lives on the street. The U.S. has to be one of the few places where you can find poor people that are obese. How a society deals with such problems shows whether it deserves to be called civilized. Teutone (aka Horst K)

Last edited by Teutone; 06-04-2006 at 04:33 AM.
Teutone is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #72 of 96 (permalink) Old 06-04-2006, 08:21 AM
BenzWorld Elite
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: 95 E300
Location: Inside my head
Posts: 36,850
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 392 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbear
I thought I had remembered earlier posts where you had dug out during the oil bust of the 80's. I asked the question because you kept making sweeping statements as if all folks in the US that are poor or on welfare think alike and somehow all have decided to work the system in a concerted effort to 'beat the man'. That is what surprised me. And with the post above, everything makes sense until the last sentence when you broad stroke everyone again. .....
Whenever folks speak in a statistical sense they will misapply description to this or that subset of the population. As have you when you hypothesize some fellow in certain circumstances as though he represents an entire population. As long as we speak in generalities will will do some segment an injustice. But you know that, so pitch your read herrings some other direction.
Botnst is offline  
post #73 of 96 (permalink) Old 06-04-2006, 10:08 AM
BenzWorld Elite
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: 2014 E250 Bluetec 4-Matic, 1983 240D 4-Speed
Location: USA
Posts: 9,257
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Quoted: 256 Post(s)
mcbear,

It all comes down to a fundamental difference in perception of the human condition and the human being as a creature.

There are some who believe the human condition is one described as free to do as one chooses in all aspects of life, and in such an outlook if you can't fend for yourself, well, die and get out of the way since you chose not to fend for yourself. The sooner the better, in fact. And, if some sucker takes pity on you and gives you a hand out, well, that is his business, isn't it? But just because some people will give others a handout doesn't give anyone the right to force anyone else to give handouts.

Then there are others who believe most people are truly trying to be productive but circumstances beyond their control are limiting the success of the efforts of such people. Those with this perception also seem to believe if you force the more successful people to provide a handout to those who appear in need, a number of those in need will use the handout to overcome the circumstances holding them back, and then be in a position to contribute to society. This group, by the nature of the outlook that it is necessary to force the general population to fund the handout, seems to believe if left up to the individuals in the society to choose whether or not to contribute to the handout, most would opt out, leaving the burden on those willing to give, making the success of the handout concept less likely. The result would be a depressingly large number of downtrodden Americans with relatively unsatisfying, short lives spent slaving for the wealthy.

There is merit in both outlooks, as the handout seems to be detrimental to some of society - it removes the challenge to struggle to survive, which seems to be a fundamental input into the human operating program to make us productive, and appears, after generations, to leave us with a population that is culturally vastly different from the ones providing the contributions to the handout. On the other hand, it seems there is ample evidence that a substantial portion of the population manages to use the handouts as intended. There is also evidence if the assistance intended by the handouts is provided on a much more personal level, by volunteers seeking to ensure the needs of those without are met directly, and not merely by passing out cash, the needs are met much more efficiently.

Our two party political system has turned these roughly portrayed differences in perception into a right and wrong, black and white, type of issue. Conservatives don't want to contribute to the handouts for a wide variety of reasons that are all made to sound more like gross selfishness by those with resources to spare to liberals than logical. And liberals sound like Robin Hoods looking to pillage the wealthy to redistribute their wealth to the teaming vermin at the bottom of the social ladder who don't want to work, rather than people interested in improving the social structure of America as a whole.

Neither portrayal is accurate, and the handouts, while necessary are not handled effectively and efficiently. In fact, I would hypothesize there is ample evidence if one looked for it, that the present system has been reduced from the idealistic intent of the "Great Society" plan to mere bibery to keep the hordes of undesireables huddled together in large urban areas without the standards of police and other social services that are expected by those contributing to the handouts. If the bribery stopped, these hordes would spew into the suburbs and rape and pillage the wealthy long before they would agree to starve to death or begin eating each other to stay alive.

The problem is the difference between truly caring help being provided, which requires not only funding, but sustained, sincere efforts by truly caring people, and bueaucrats handing out an impersonal dose of cash each week or month that in turn funds the subculture of the ghetto, instead of what was desired. This has gone on for so long, if you are not from the ghetto, it is unlikely you will volunteer to go into the ghetto for any reason, to provide any service. This includes services like police to enforce the laws of the land and ensure basic safety and security.

The government can do better, and should be chartered to do better. So far though, the politics of allowing that to happen are too wrapped up in the success of dividing an conquering to win elections, and then collecting on the spending sprees via kickbacks and other graft. Jim
JimSmith is offline  
post #74 of 96 (permalink) Old 06-04-2006, 11:09 AM
BenzWorld Elite
 
mcbear's Avatar
 
Date registered: Apr 2004
Vehicle: E500Es
Location: The BlueGrass State
Posts: 29,579
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Botnst
Whenever folks speak in a statistical sense they will misapply description to this or that subset of the population. As have you when you hypothesize some fellow in certain circumstances as though he represents an entire population. As long as we speak in generalities will will do some segment an injustice. But you know that, so pitch your read herrings some other direction.

First, my example of what became Harry Hypo was in reference to the comment "lets not have any tax and make our own decisions about healthcare". Obviously that got lost somewhere in generalities but the scenerio is a very valid point when discussing a blanket healthcare policy.

My further point was that you cannot speak in generalizations and stereotypes when suggesting that America's poor are lazy, unable to dig out and need to 'get their priorities straight' simply because it is untrue and BS.

I was not actually speaking in generalizations when I initally spoke of 'Harry Hypo'. He is a friend of mine from eastern Kentucky. All of his savings went to his three kids college funds so they did not have to struggle like he and his wife did. They lived in a 900sqft house and drove a 10 year old car and a 12 yr old truck (needed to get to work). He had to leave school at 10th grade to support his mother and siblings so education was not an option for the oldest child. His priorities were laser sharp. He had to break into the college savings to have living expenses for the past four years and medical expenses for his wife and youngest kid. I pay for his oldest daughters college.

I don't throw red herrings. If I have something to say, it will never be for misdirection. I will say it straight. Red herrings are for politicians.

McBear,
Kentucky

Being smart is knowing the difference, in a sticky situation between a well delivered anecdote and a well delivered antidote - bear.
mcbear is offline  
post #75 of 96 (permalink) Old 06-04-2006, 11:20 AM
BenzWorld Elite
 
mcbear's Avatar
 
Date registered: Apr 2004
Vehicle: E500Es
Location: The BlueGrass State
Posts: 29,579
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teutone
The U.S. has to be one of the few places where you can find poor people that are obese. . Teutone (aka Horst K)
The obesity is caused by poor food choices, not by spending wads of money eating. Surveys show that food stamp purchases have dismal health benifits but are very high in 'comfort food' consumption.

Back in the 60's before the food stamp system there was a commodities program where the government actually provided specific high quality foods to recipiants but distribution was easier with food stamps so the commodity system was phased out.

McBear,
Kentucky

Being smart is knowing the difference, in a sticky situation between a well delivered anecdote and a well delivered antidote - bear.
mcbear is offline  
post #76 of 96 (permalink) Old 06-04-2006, 12:25 PM
BenzWorld Elite
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: 95 E300
Location: Inside my head
Posts: 36,850
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 392 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbear
First, my example of what became Harry Hypo was in reference to the comment "lets not have any tax and make our own decisions about healthcare". Obviously that got lost somewhere in generalities but the scenerio is a very valid point when discussing a blanket healthcare policy.

My further point was that you cannot speak in generalizations and stereotypes when suggesting that America's poor are lazy, unable to dig out and need to 'get their priorities straight' simply because it is untrue and BS.

I was not actually speaking in generalizations when I initally spoke of 'Harry Hypo'. He is a friend of mine from eastern Kentucky. All of his savings went to his three kids college funds so they did not have to struggle like he and his wife did. They lived in a 900sqft house and drove a 10 year old car and a 12 yr old truck (needed to get to work). He had to leave school at 10th grade to support his mother and siblings so education was not an option for the oldest child. His priorities were laser sharp. He had to break into the college savings to have living expenses for the past four years and medical expenses for his wife and youngest kid. I pay for his oldest daughters college.

I don't throw red herrings. If I have something to say, it will never be for misdirection. I will say it straight. Red herrings are for politicians.
It comes down to you saying that your generalizations are okay because they agree with your world view. By that same line of reasoning, yours is a wonderfully moral and humane philosophy. Etc. Fine with me.

We have a fundamentally different view of this particular issue, derived from very different experiences, etc.

There are lots of stories about all sorts of folks. Sometimes people need a helping hand as you suggest in your story. In your example of a family that you know personally I hope that you and your community did the right thing by them.

I know immigrants who have worked their asses off in menial jobs to get ahead so their children can go where their parents could not. There are lots of Cambodians and Vietnamese families in my community who came here with nothing after the fall of S. Vietnam and the subsequent pogroms. The same with the Cambodians after Pol Pot's little adventure in social engineering. They worked as a community, shared wealth and opportunity among themselves (and charging usury interest rates among themselves, too). Now their kids and grandkids are going to college. I also know some Jamaicans who worked using essentially the same model.

There are far more people, IMO, who work their asses off trying to get out of their situation than there are complacent folks seeking freebies from society. But the complacent parasites get the attention rather than the hardworking folks. That's life in the real world.

Since the "War on Poverty" was declared back in the 1960's, trillions of dollars have been spent in what can only be described as a prolonged failure, since there are as many or more people in "poverty" in 2006 as in 1966.

After about 40 years of trying mightily to make a failed system work in every way possible from the mind and wallet of man, I think it is time to challenge the paradigm rather than embrace it.

B
Botnst is offline  
post #77 of 96 (permalink) Old 06-04-2006, 01:49 PM
BenzWorld Member
 
Boo!'s Avatar
 
Date registered: May 2006
Vehicle: 2006 C230
Location: Home of the Gators
Posts: 55
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbear
The obesity is caused by poor food choices, not by spending wads of money eating. Surveys show that food stamp purchases have dismal health benifits but are very high in 'comfort food' consumption.

Back in the 60's before the food stamp system there was a commodities program where the government actually provided specific high quality foods to recipiants but distribution was easier with food stamps so the commodity system was phased out.
Spot on regarding the poor choices, mcbear. Fat and carbs have taken precedence over fruits and vegetables. We also have some food stamp recipients selling their food stamps via black market to get cash for the staples in life: cell phone, pager, rims, drugs, alcohol. I think our lawmakers should jump on this problem just as soon as they agree that there is a problem.

About the commodities program, a form of it still exists. I'm not exactly sure of the name. However, the user must pick up specific items, right down to the brand, at supermarkets. Not like the days of 5 pound blocks of cheese, though.
Boo! is offline  
post #78 of 96 (permalink) Old 06-04-2006, 03:02 PM
BenzWorld Elite
 
mcbear's Avatar
 
Date registered: Apr 2004
Vehicle: E500Es
Location: The BlueGrass State
Posts: 29,579
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Botnst
It comes down to you saying that your generalizations are okay because they agree with your world view. By that same line of reasoning, yours is a wonderfully moral and humane philosophy. Etc. Fine with me.

We have a fundamentally different view of this particular issue, derived from very different experiences, etc.

There are lots of stories about all sorts of folks. Sometimes people need a helping hand as you suggest in your story. In your example of a family that you know personally I hope that you and your community did the right thing by them.

I know immigrants who have worked their asses off in menial jobs to get ahead so their children can go where their parents could not. There are lots of Cambodians and Vietnamese families in my community who came here with nothing after the fall of S. Vietnam and the subsequent pogroms. The same with the Cambodians after Pol Pot's little adventure in social engineering. They worked as a community, shared wealth and opportunity among themselves (and charging usury interest rates among themselves, too). Now their kids and grandkids are going to college. I also know some Jamaicans who worked using essentially the same model.

There are far more people, IMO, who work their asses off trying to get out of their situation than there are complacent folks seeking freebies from society. But the complacent parasites get the attention rather than the hardworking folks. That's life in the real world.

Since the "War on Poverty" was declared back in the 1960's, trillions of dollars have been spent in what can only be described as a prolonged failure, since there are as many or more people in "poverty" in 2006 as in 1966.

After about 40 years of trying mightily to make a failed system work in every way possible from the mind and wallet of man, I think it is time to challenge the paradigm rather than embrace it.

B
I could not agree more. If the last five paragraphs summerize your view of the welfare system, or the strength of families and social groups to work together to overcome fiscal adversity, then we agree completely.

Earlier I posted that I am a fiscal conservative yet a social liberal. That can only be achieved by insuring that those in true need are helped and that those who can help themselves do.

McBear,
Kentucky

Being smart is knowing the difference, in a sticky situation between a well delivered anecdote and a well delivered antidote - bear.
mcbear is offline  
post #79 of 96 (permalink) Old 06-04-2006, 03:09 PM
BenzWorld Elite
 
mcbear's Avatar
 
Date registered: Apr 2004
Vehicle: E500Es
Location: The BlueGrass State
Posts: 29,579
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boo!
Spot on regarding the poor choices, mcbear. Fat and carbs have taken precedence over fruits and vegetables. We also have some food stamp recipients selling their food stamps via black market to get cash for the staples in life: cell phone, pager, rims, drugs, alcohol. I think our lawmakers should jump on this problem just as soon as they agree that there is a problem.

About the commodities program, a form of it still exists. I'm not exactly sure of the name. However, the user must pick up specific items, right down to the brand, at supermarkets. Not like the days of 5 pound blocks of cheese, though.
I think it is a WIC program for women and children to insure the kids get milk and other nutrients.

The black market for food stamps must be amazing. There are convenience stores in NYC as well as markets in Harlan County that will take the FSs for 40cents on the dollar. Kids get crappy food and mom or dad get crack or apparently the newest meth which is running rampant through the mountains. You can't even buy sudifed during allergy season anymore without going to the pharmacist.

McBear,
Kentucky

Being smart is knowing the difference, in a sticky situation between a well delivered anecdote and a well delivered antidote - bear.
mcbear is offline  
post #80 of 96 (permalink) Old 06-04-2006, 04:25 PM
BenzWorld Member
 
Boo!'s Avatar
 
Date registered: May 2006
Vehicle: 2006 C230
Location: Home of the Gators
Posts: 55
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbear
I think it is a WIC program for women and children to insure the kids get milk and other nutrients.

The black market for food stamps must be amazing. There are convenience stores in NYC as well as markets in Harlan County that will take the FSs for 40cents on the dollar. Kids get crappy food and mom or dad get crack or apparently the newest meth which is running rampant through the mountains. You can't even buy sudifed during allergy season anymore without going to the pharmacist.
I noticed you are in Kentucky. I remember reading a few years back that the percentage of meth users is higher in Kentucky's rural areas than anywhere else in the country. The amount of seized labs doubled in just a few years ( I think '99 to '01 ) in these same areas. No surprise the flu medications are kept under lock and key. I'm sure they have other sources, though. Like the 'net.
Boo! is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

  Mercedes-Benz Forum > General Mercedes-Benz Forums > Off-Topic

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Mercedes-Benz Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











  • Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
     
    Thread Tools
    Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
    Email this Page Email this Page
    Display Modes
    Linear Mode Linear Mode



    Posting Rules  
    You may post new threads
    You may post replies
    You may not post attachments
    You may not edit your posts

    BB code is On
    Smilies are On
    [IMG] code is On
    HTML code is Off
    Trackbacks are On
    Pingbacks are On
    Refbacks are On

     

    Title goes here

    close
    video goes here
    description goes here. Read Full Story
    For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome