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post #11 of 50 (permalink) Old 03-29-2006, 05:46 AM
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RE: Immigration?

Quote:
kvining - 3/28/2006 11:22 AM

I don't buy the "jobs nobody wants" BS. Mexico doesn't produce just bean pickers, they produce plumbers, carpenters and college grads just like any other nation does, and I am seeing more and more of them everywhere. Business loves them, and quite frankly uses them to bust unions. When I was a kid, you could go to a construction site, go to work as a "helper", make good money if you worked hard while you learned a trade. No more. Go to a construction job site. It's all fucking Mexicans, from the lowest paid laborers to the master level workers.

Plain and simple, it's racketeering. Businesses that use legal labor are driven out of business by crooks and traitors who hire illegals. They are aiding and abetting a foreign army that has invaded us without guns, and they get a free pass because they have the GOP whores sucking their cranks. Until we throw a few CEO's in prison, this will never,never stop. We have two choices - either start locking up those who hire them while we confiscate their businesses and turn their assets over to those who compete legally, or annex the country. Fences, jackboot border stormtroopers, all are stupid ideas that won't work, which is why the GOP dick suckers are in favor of them. Not one word about a national biometric ID for SS cards. Not one word defining those who hire illegals as traitors. Just phony authoritarian bullshit. 40% of illegals got here by overstaying vistor's visas. If the Mexicans stop coming, they will simply be replaced by Chinese and Jamaicans hiding in ships, while the Mexicans save up for a plane ticket to Disneyland. There is only one place to attack this - put employers in prison.
The first part of your post is correct. Although I would not have used the same description for the workers, esp. seeing that they are not all Mexicans. Plenty of other countriyes south of the border.

But your blame the GOP crap gets tired. Try and be honest both parties are equally guilty. Both parties have put their votes up for sale. They are testing the winds to see if it is better to cater to the hispanic population that wants to 'take back the border states and make the national language spanish' and their tractional base of voters.

As with most arguments in politics the core salient points are lost in the hyperbole.

It is simple. If you are here illegally you are a criminal and should be deported. You should get no public assistance. If you need medical care only life threatening injuries & dieses should be treated and only to get them out of danger. All gov't business should take place in English. If you are an employer and hire illegal immigrants you should be punished. No slap on the wrist but painful enough to make people think twice.
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post #12 of 50 (permalink) Old 03-29-2006, 06:00 AM
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RE: Immigration?

Quote:
430 - 3/29/2006 7:46 AM

Quote:
kvining - 3/28/2006 11:22 AM

I don't buy the "jobs nobody wants" BS. Mexico doesn't produce just bean pickers, they produce plumbers, carpenters and college grads just like any other nation does, and I am seeing more and more of them everywhere. Business loves them, and quite frankly uses them to bust unions. When I was a kid, you could go to a construction site, go to work as a "helper", make good money if you worked hard while you learned a trade. No more. Go to a construction job site. It's all fucking Mexicans, from the lowest paid laborers to the master level workers.

Plain and simple, it's racketeering. Businesses that use legal labor are driven out of business by crooks and traitors who hire illegals. They are aiding and abetting a foreign army that has invaded us without guns, and they get a free pass because they have the GOP whores sucking their cranks. Until we throw a few CEO's in prison, this will never,never stop. We have two choices - either start locking up those who hire them while we confiscate their businesses and turn their assets over to those who compete legally, or annex the country. Fences, jackboot border stormtroopers, all are stupid ideas that won't work, which is why the GOP dick suckers are in favor of them. Not one word about a national biometric ID for SS cards. Not one word defining those who hire illegals as traitors. Just phony authoritarian bullshit. 40% of illegals got here by overstaying vistor's visas. If the Mexicans stop coming, they will simply be replaced by Chinese and Jamaicans hiding in ships, while the Mexicans save up for a plane ticket to Disneyland. There is only one place to attack this - put employers in prison.
The first part of your post is correct. Although I would not have used the same description for the workers, esp. seeing that they are not all Mexicans. Plenty of other countriyes south of the border.

But your blame the GOP crap gets tired. Try and be honest both parties are equally guilty. Both parties have put their votes up for sale. They are testing the winds to see if it is better to cater to the hispanic population that wants to 'take back the border states and make the national language spanish' and their tractional base of voters.

As with most arguments in politics the core salient points are lost in the hyperbole.

It is simple. If you are here illegally you are a criminal and should be deported. You should get no public assistance. If you need medical care only life threatening injuries & dieses should be treated and only to get them out of danger. All gov't business should take place in English. If you are an employer and hire illegal immigrants you should be punished. No slap on the wrist but painful enough to make people think twice.
By putting the onus on the employer you empower the employer with a form of police authority and burdens the employer with having to become a document expert.

Unless, as Kirk often says, a national ID card is required of all citizens. But the rightwingnuts think that is another sign of the apocalypse, being marked with the sign of the beast or some such, and they will fight it and their sycophants in Congress will portray it as another assault by Big Gov. But this time it may get over that hump if it can get some air time.

B
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post #13 of 50 (permalink) Old 03-29-2006, 07:49 AM
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RE: Immigration?

Quote:
azimuth - 3/28/2006 11:49 PM

Quote:
kvining - 3/28/2006 11:22 AM

I don't buy the "jobs nobody wants" BS. Mexico doesn't produce just bean pickers, they produce plumbers, carpenters and college grads just like any other nation does, and I am seeing more and more of them everywhere. Business loves them, and quite frankly uses them to bust unions. When I was a kid, you could go to a construction site, go to work as a "helper", make good money if you worked hard while you learned a trade. No more. Go to a construction job site. It's all fucking Mexicans, from the lowest paid laborers to the master level workers.

Plain and simple, it's racketeering. Businesses that use legal labor are driven out of business by crooks and traitors who hire illegals. They are aiding and abetting a foreign army that has invaded us without guns, and they get a free pass because they have the GOP whores sucking their cranks. Until we throw a few CEO's in prison, this will never,never stop. We have two choices - either start locking up those who hire them while we confiscate their businesses and turn their assets over to those who compete legally, or annex the country. Fences, jackboot border stormtroopers, all are stupid ideas that won't work, which is why the GOP dick suckers are in favor of them. Not one word about a national biometric ID for SS cards. Not one word defining those who hire illegals as traitors. Just phony authoritarian bullshit. 40% of illegals got here by overstaying vistor's visas. If the Mexicans stop coming, they will simply be replaced by Chinese and Jamaicans hiding in ships, while the Mexicans save up for a plane ticket to Disneyland. There is only one place to attack this - put employers in prison.

For the most part, this man nailed the analysis. Human beings are all about motivation. For this issue the motivation is profit. Remove that, and no more issue. The free market has been tweeked artificially with this sort of labor. If we un tweek it, the pendulum will swing wildly the other way for a while. It will be painful. We may not survive the ramifications in the short term.

I prefer to follow certain priciples; one of which is following and enforcing the law. While corrective measures may be devastating to the economy, I believe they are still better in the long run. To sacrifice principles for convenience or comfort is to have no principles at all........and we know where that leads us.

You are dead on with your perspective, KV
You have to hand it to the corporate powers for the incredibly effective job they have done steering the focus away from themselves. To me, the silence on the issue shows just how far the corporate terminites have eaten into our democracy. Not one Senator is shouting this from the roof tops, they all step gingerly around it so as not to get their lips off the corporate dick they are sucking. They get Bubba all lathered up over the prospect of locking up a bunch of brown people, they get authoritarian nuts all in a tizzy over a big bad border fence, and they get the NRA gun paranoids on their side to keep us from setting up any kind of effective identification system that will insure that only the people we want to work here get to do so. And the talking heads keep their mouths shut too. This is how the modern friendly fascism works - its a team effort between the big corporations, the GOP fatcats and the media, all of whom are in the grip of the corporations. They cheat us from our own democracy, now to the point where they literally commit treason against this nation and totally get away with it. The best example I know of is Bo Pilgrim. Worth some 6 billion dollars, Mr. Pilgrim employs some 30,000 illegal aliens in his chicken operations. He has become fabulously wealthy in the process - wealth he acquired by driving his competition out of business by blatantly hiring illegals. He has turned numerous rural Texas towns into suburbs of Mexico City, and the county hospitals in these areas pick up the tab for his health care costs so he can add another billion to his obscene wealth. Many of these counties have a tax base that consists of old retirees who now face enormous tax burdens to raise Bo's children and put pay their hospital bills. How is this man NOT a criminal? How is he NOT a traitor? Well, I'll tell you what he is - one of the biggest contributors to the GOP in the country. In Texas, he finances all the local races of the far right nuts. And he is just one of them. Home building and real estate tycoons, hotel fat cats, big agricultural conglomerates, anything that is labor intensive, they are all doing this. To me it's simple logic - arrest these bastards, and the old ladies in Mt. Pleasant Texas might see their tax bills go down. Arrest the illegals in some jack booted sweep of the same town, and the next bunch will come in right behind them. So support your fence. Scream for soldiers on the border. And kiss your job goodbye.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #14 of 50 (permalink) Old 03-29-2006, 07:54 AM
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RE: Immigration?

Quote:
Botnst - 3/29/2006 7:11 AM

Quote:
azimuth - 3/28/2006 11:49 PM

Quote:
kvining - 3/28/2006 11:22 AM

I don't buy the "jobs nobody wants" BS. Mexico doesn't produce just bean pickers, they produce plumbers, carpenters and college grads just like any other nation does, and I am seeing more and more of them everywhere. Business loves them, and quite frankly uses them to bust unions. When I was a kid, you could go to a construction site, go to work as a "helper", make good money if you worked hard while you learned a trade. No more. Go to a construction job site. It's all fucking Mexicans, from the lowest paid laborers to the master level workers.

Plain and simple, it's racketeering. Businesses that use legal labor are driven out of business by crooks and traitors who hire illegals. They are aiding and abetting a foreign army that has invaded us without guns, and they get a free pass because they have the GOP whores sucking their cranks. Until we throw a few CEO's in prison, this will never,never stop. We have two choices - either start locking up those who hire them while we confiscate their businesses and turn their assets over to those who compete legally, or annex the country. Fences, jackboot border stormtroopers, all are stupid ideas that won't work, which is why the GOP dick suckers are in favor of them. Not one word about a national biometric ID for SS cards. Not one word defining those who hire illegals as traitors. Just phony authoritarian bullshit. 40% of illegals got here by overstaying vistor's visas. If the Mexicans stop coming, they will simply be replaced by Chinese and Jamaicans hiding in ships, while the Mexicans save up for a plane ticket to Disneyland. There is only one place to attack this - put employers in prison.

For the most part, this man nailed the analysis. Human beings are all about motivation. For this issue the motivation is profit. Remove that, and no more issue. The free market has been tweeked artificially with this sort of labor. If we un tweek it, the pendulum will swing wildly the other way for a while. It will be painful. We may not survive the ramifications in the short term.

I prefer to follow certain priciples; one of which is following and enforcing the law. While corrective measures may be devastating to the economy, I believe they are still better in the long run. To sacrifice principles for convenience or comfort is to have no principles at all........and we know where that leads us.

You are dead on with your perspective, KV
It isn't artificial at all. It is pure market dynamics.

There is a need for cheap manual labor. Americans aren't filling the need. Nature abhors a vacuum, so illegal immigrants fill the void and company owners increase profits, stockholders see an increase in value, and consumers see cheap products.

Restrict the influx of illegals and prices in the USA will rise to a level at which Americans willingly undertake the back-breaking labor currently filled by illegals. Our internally produced items will rise in cost to produce, reducing profits, making stockholders antsy. Companies raise prices.

Consumers get pissed.

Producers from outside of the USA see prices rise in the USA and become competitive as transportation costs are equilibrated with the product price rise.

Imports increase.

Competition increases and stockholders' profits decline.

Company value declines.

Company calls for protective tariffs.

Tariffs protect company from competition that holds prices down.

Prices increase to attract stockholders.

Tariffs raised to protect company.

American workers organize and demand more benefits and higher wages.

Prices rise.

Without pressure to innovate, native company serves only the interest of stockholders.

Tariffs raised.

Unionized workers want 'fair share' of corporate profits.

Union demand met.

Tariffs rise.

Consumers bitch and moan and begin to buy foreign products because price parity is no longer as important as product quality.

They begin to buy foreign product regardless of price.

Consumers see they're getting screwed by protectionism and demand removal of tariffs.

Ever seen a pattern like this before? It's coming to a neighborhood near you.

What's the solution?

LEGAL GUEST WORKERS. Allow them to bring their families. Offer a path to citizenship. Let them buy into our system legally.

B
Then annex Mexico. "Guest worker" is another term for "slave". We need to either let the American marketplace raise the price of labor to attract legal workers and drive technological innovation, or we need to bring these people into our society so they can participate in our democracy. Screw this second class citizen bullshit - all it will lead to is violence, document fraud, prejudice, smuggling, crime and misery. Our current situation, of no enforcement, is already a "guest worker" system, and that is exactly what we have got. What makes anyone think that an entire culture that has functioned for years by avoiding our immigration laws are going to suddenly become angelic "guest workers"? We need to do first things first before we even get to that point - number one, a valid biometric ID system, so we can say who is legal, who is illegal, and who is a guest. Number two, draconian enforcement of laws against hiring someone who is illegal. Then we can figure out who needs to be a "guest", which will probably become just another corrupt system of corporate bribery like our current H-1B visa program.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #15 of 50 (permalink) Old 03-29-2006, 07:56 AM
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RE: Immigration?

Quote:
kvining - 3/29/2006 9:49 AM

Quote:
azimuth - 3/28/2006 11:49 PM

Quote:
kvining - 3/28/2006 11:22 AM

I don't buy the "jobs nobody wants" BS. Mexico doesn't produce just bean pickers, they produce plumbers, carpenters and college grads just like any other nation does, and I am seeing more and more of them everywhere. Business loves them, and quite frankly uses them to bust unions. When I was a kid, you could go to a construction site, go to work as a "helper", make good money if you worked hard while you learned a trade. No more. Go to a construction job site. It's all fucking Mexicans, from the lowest paid laborers to the master level workers.

Plain and simple, it's racketeering. Businesses that use legal labor are driven out of business by crooks and traitors who hire illegals. They are aiding and abetting a foreign army that has invaded us without guns, and they get a free pass because they have the GOP whores sucking their cranks. Until we throw a few CEO's in prison, this will never,never stop. We have two choices - either start locking up those who hire them while we confiscate their businesses and turn their assets over to those who compete legally, or annex the country. Fences, jackboot border stormtroopers, all are stupid ideas that won't work, which is why the GOP dick suckers are in favor of them. Not one word about a national biometric ID for SS cards. Not one word defining those who hire illegals as traitors. Just phony authoritarian bullshit. 40% of illegals got here by overstaying vistor's visas. If the Mexicans stop coming, they will simply be replaced by Chinese and Jamaicans hiding in ships, while the Mexicans save up for a plane ticket to Disneyland. There is only one place to attack this - put employers in prison.

For the most part, this man nailed the analysis. Human beings are all about motivation. For this issue the motivation is profit. Remove that, and no more issue. The free market has been tweeked artificially with this sort of labor. If we un tweek it, the pendulum will swing wildly the other way for a while. It will be painful. We may not survive the ramifications in the short term.

I prefer to follow certain priciples; one of which is following and enforcing the law. While corrective measures may be devastating to the economy, I believe they are still better in the long run. To sacrifice principles for convenience or comfort is to have no principles at all........and we know where that leads us.

You are dead on with your perspective, KV
You have to hand it to the corporate powers for the incredibly effective job they have done steering the focus away from themselves. To me, the silence on the issue shows just how far the corporate terminites have eaten into our democracy. Not one Senator is shouting this from the roof tops, they all step gingerly around it so as not to get their lips off the corporate dick they are sucking. They get Bubba all lathered up over the prospect of locking up a bunch of brown people, they get authoritarian nuts all in a tizzy over a big bad border fence, and they get the NRA gun paranoids on their side to keep us from setting up any kind of effective identification system that will insure that only the people we want to work here get to do so. And the talking heads keep their mouths shut too. This is how the modern friendly fascism works - its a team effort between the big corporations, the GOP fatcats and the media, all of whom are in the grip of the corporations. They cheat us from our own democracy, now to the point where they literally commit treason against this nation and totally get away with it. The best example I know of is Bo Pilgrim. Worth some 6 billion dollars, Mr. Pilgrim employs some 30,000 illegal aliens in his chicken operations. He has become fabulously wealthy in the process - wealth he acquired by driving his competition out of business by blatantly hiring illegals. He has turned numerous rural Texas towns into suburbs of Mexico City, and the county hospitals in these areas pick up the tab for his health care costs so he can add another billion to his obscene wealth. Many of these counties have a tax base that consists of old retirees who now face enormous tax burdens to raise Bo's children and put pay their hospital bills. How is this man NOT a criminal? How is he NOT a traitor? Well, I'll tell you what he is - one of the biggest contributors to the GOP in the country. In Texas, he finances all the local races of the far right nuts. And he is just one of them. Home building and real estate tycoons, hotel fat cats, big agricultural conglomerates, anything that is labor intensive, they are all doing this. To me it's simple logic - arrest these bastards, and the old ladies in Mt. Pleasant Texas might see their tax bills go down. Arrest the illegals in some jack booted sweep of the same town, and the next bunch will come in right behind them. So support your fence. Scream for soldiers on the border. And kiss your job goodbye.
I would add that small business is as guilty as the corporate 'terminites' ([:D]) and that the average citizen that hires them cut his own throat to spare a few dollars.

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post #16 of 50 (permalink) Old 03-29-2006, 08:02 AM
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RE: Immigration?

Quote:
kvining - 3/29/2006 9:54 AM

Quote:
Botnst - 3/29/2006 7:11 AM

Quote:
azimuth - 3/28/2006 11:49 PM

Quote:
kvining - 3/28/2006 11:22 AM

I don't buy the "jobs nobody wants" BS. Mexico doesn't produce just bean pickers, they produce plumbers, carpenters and college grads just like any other nation does, and I am seeing more and more of them everywhere. Business loves them, and quite frankly uses them to bust unions. When I was a kid, you could go to a construction site, go to work as a "helper", make good money if you worked hard while you learned a trade. No more. Go to a construction job site. It's all fucking Mexicans, from the lowest paid laborers to the master level workers.

Plain and simple, it's racketeering. Businesses that use legal labor are driven out of business by crooks and traitors who hire illegals. They are aiding and abetting a foreign army that has invaded us without guns, and they get a free pass because they have the GOP whores sucking their cranks. Until we throw a few CEO's in prison, this will never,never stop. We have two choices - either start locking up those who hire them while we confiscate their businesses and turn their assets over to those who compete legally, or annex the country. Fences, jackboot border stormtroopers, all are stupid ideas that won't work, which is why the GOP dick suckers are in favor of them. Not one word about a national biometric ID for SS cards. Not one word defining those who hire illegals as traitors. Just phony authoritarian bullshit. 40% of illegals got here by overstaying vistor's visas. If the Mexicans stop coming, they will simply be replaced by Chinese and Jamaicans hiding in ships, while the Mexicans save up for a plane ticket to Disneyland. There is only one place to attack this - put employers in prison.

For the most part, this man nailed the analysis. Human beings are all about motivation. For this issue the motivation is profit. Remove that, and no more issue. The free market has been tweeked artificially with this sort of labor. If we un tweek it, the pendulum will swing wildly the other way for a while. It will be painful. We may not survive the ramifications in the short term.

I prefer to follow certain priciples; one of which is following and enforcing the law. While corrective measures may be devastating to the economy, I believe they are still better in the long run. To sacrifice principles for convenience or comfort is to have no principles at all........and we know where that leads us.

You are dead on with your perspective, KV
It isn't artificial at all. It is pure market dynamics.

There is a need for cheap manual labor. Americans aren't filling the need. Nature abhors a vacuum, so illegal immigrants fill the void and company owners increase profits, stockholders see an increase in value, and consumers see cheap products.

Restrict the influx of illegals and prices in the USA will rise to a level at which Americans willingly undertake the back-breaking labor currently filled by illegals. Our internally produced items will rise in cost to produce, reducing profits, making stockholders antsy. Companies raise prices.

Consumers get pissed.

Producers from outside of the USA see prices rise in the USA and become competitive as transportation costs are equilibrated with the product price rise.

Imports increase.

Competition increases and stockholders' profits decline.

Company value declines.

Company calls for protective tariffs.

Tariffs protect company from competition that holds prices down.

Prices increase to attract stockholders.

Tariffs raised to protect company.

American workers organize and demand more benefits and higher wages.

Prices rise.

Without pressure to innovate, native company serves only the interest of stockholders.

Tariffs raised.

Unionized workers want 'fair share' of corporate profits.

Union demand met.

Tariffs rise.

Consumers bitch and moan and begin to buy foreign products because price parity is no longer as important as product quality.

They begin to buy foreign product regardless of price.

Consumers see they're getting screwed by protectionism and demand removal of tariffs.

Ever seen a pattern like this before? It's coming to a neighborhood near you.

What's the solution?

LEGAL GUEST WORKERS. Allow them to bring their families. Offer a path to citizenship. Let them buy into our system legally.

B
Then annex Mexico. "Guest worker" is another term for "slave". We need to either let the American marketplace raise the price of labor to attract legal workers and drive technological innovation, or we need to bring these people into our society so they can participate in our democracy. Screw this second class citizen bullshit - all it will lead to is violence, document fraud, prejudice, smuggling, crime and misery. Our current situation, of no enforcement, is already a "guest worker" system.
I say annexation would work if we could manage the initial drag that economies with differential rates of value/production would created upon assimilation.

Mexico is a beautiful place outside the hackneyed tourist traps. Perhaps one day I'll move back there when I retire.

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post #17 of 50 (permalink) Old 03-29-2006, 08:23 AM
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RE: Immigration?

Annexing Mexico is smart, in fact, all of Central America should be united with us. They need honest government. We need oil and a young working population, and real estate development alone would fuel a better local economy for these people so they don't have to flee. The problem is removing the corrupt entrenched ruling classes in these countries that have brought these people centuries of misery thru blatant criminality. If Bubba needs a jack boot thug job, there it is.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #18 of 50 (permalink) Old 03-29-2006, 08:25 AM
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RE: Immigration?

Quote:
kvining - 3/29/2006 10:23 AM

Annexing Mexico is smart, in fact, all of Central America should be united with us. They need honest government. We need oil and a young working population, and real estate development alone would fuel a better local economy for these people so they don't have to flee. The problem is removing the corrupt entrenched ruling classes in these countries that have brought these people centuries of misery thru blatant criminality. If Bubba needs a jack boot thug job, there it is.
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post #19 of 50 (permalink) Old 03-29-2006, 08:53 AM
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RE: Immigration?

Quote:
kvining - 3/29/2006 10:23 AM

Annexing Mexico is smart, in fact, all of Central America should be united with us. They need honest government. We need oil and a young working population, and real estate development alone would fuel a better local economy for these people so they don't have to flee. The problem is removing the corrupt entrenched ruling classes in these countries that have brought these people centuries of misery thru blatant criminality. If Bubba needs a jack boot thug job, there it is.
Again see you understand the issues at hand. Wouldn't this be a hostile take-over then? I mean how many corrupt leaders will throw up thier hands in surrender at the suggestion of assimilation?

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post #20 of 50 (permalink) Old 03-29-2006, 10:42 AM
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RE: Immigration?

Quote:
kvining - 3/29/2006 10:23 AM

Annexing Mexico is smart, in fact, all of Central America should be united with us. They need honest government. We need oil and a young working population, and real estate development alone would fuel a better local economy for these people so they don't have to flee. The problem is removing the corrupt entrenched ruling classes in these countries that have brought these people centuries of misery thru blatant criminality. If Bubba needs a jack boot thug job, there it is.
Excellent synopsis of the general Latin American problem.

It surfaces in spades in Venezuela. The oligarchy raped the people for nearly 200 years and that was after the spanish crown raped them for the previous 200. No wonder the poor are so pissed that they'll support a martinet like Chavez. He has played the role in Venezuela that Huey P Long played in Louisiana. A corrupt antidote to an even more corrupt disease.

B
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